We got lucky both in our pick plus the draft having very good players through to 4. Also you never know, some drafts teams have done crazy stupid things with 1, 2 and 3 picks leaving one there you don't expect at 4.
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TrueTorontoFan wrote: View PostI want to just say we shouldn't try and be cute. If there is a chance to trade up.. sure.. but we shouldn't be trading back.. and we definitely shouldn't trade back for the #8.. no just take whoever is left or try to trade up. This is the chance of a life time with our current team. Let's say its Suggs not Green. There would be NOTHING to complain about. People would be SO happy.
Like, here's a hypothetical: say Orlando wants to trade and get the #4 because they think Jalen Green is a generational talent and he's who's left when the #4 pick rolls around. What if the Raptors don't think Green is a generational talent? (I don't want to start arguing over whether Green is or isn't right now - if you wanna say Mobley or Suggs in this scenario instead, just mentally insert them.) What if they say to Orlando "okay, we'll trade you #4 for #5 and #8" and Orlando goes for it? In that case the Raptors get two lottery picks and the opportunity to draft two guys they think can be franchise players, because that middle tier of 5-12 is full of really promising prospects as well. If you think that's unrealistic, maybe instead consider OKC (with #6 and #16) or Golden State (#7 and #14).
Before we landed #4, we were debating whether the likes of Barnes or Giddey or Keon or Bouknight or Springer were potentially as good an outcome as getting one of the big four. Now the question is: is getting two of them as good an outcome as getting one of the big four? Because that's very likely on the table.
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Dvdvideo wrote: View PostWe got lucky both in our pick plus the draft having very good players through to 4. Also you never know, some drafts teams have done crazy stupid things with 1, 2 and 3 picks leaving one there you don't expect at 4.
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Dvdvideo wrote: View PostWe got lucky both in our pick plus the draft having very good players through to 4. Also you never know, some drafts teams have done crazy stupid things with 1, 2 and 3 picks leaving one there you don't expect at 4.
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magoon wrote: View Post
The thing is: we don't know what Masai and Bobby's personal draft board looks like, and we're at the most premium spot for a trade because we have the last remaining pick of the Consensus Four Best Guys, who might not be Masai and Bobby's Four Best Guys.
Like, here's a hypothetical: say Orlando wants to trade and get the #4 because they think Jalen Green is a generational talent and he's who's left when the #4 pick rolls around. What if the Raptors don't think Green is a generational talent? (I don't want to start arguing over whether Green is or isn't right now - if you wanna say Mobley or Suggs in this scenario instead, just mentally insert them.) What if they say to Orlando "okay, we'll trade you #4 for #5 and #8" and Orlando goes for it? In that case the Raptors get two lottery picks and the opportunity to draft two guys they think can be franchise players, because that middle tier of 5-12 is full of really promising prospects as well. If you think that's unrealistic, maybe instead consider OKC (with #6 and #16) or Golden State (#7 and #14).
Before we landed #4, we were debating whether the likes of Barnes or Giddey or Keon or Bouknight or Springer were potentially as good an outcome as getting one of the big four. Now the question is: is getting two of them as good an outcome as getting one of the big four? Because that's very likely on the table.
I would say we were not arguing whether keon was good enough or giddey or bouknight or springer. We all seemed to agree that those guys seemed to be a step down from the top 4-5. With Kuminga as the slight outsider.
You also don't necessarily want to be developing two guys at the same time unless you are making a significant pivot towards a tear down in which case still.. keep the or move up using a guy like siakam and future assets which again no thanks.
Giddey as well. seemed way too far down of a step down. The only guy who could potentially move up in my opinion is Barnes if the shot is real ... but then again just take the man. This is not a time to get cute. Just take the man.Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Wed Jun 23, 2021, 07:54 AM.
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Guys the top 4 is head and shoulders above the rest of the draft class. We lucked out huge.
On draft night My TV is going to be thrown out the door if it’s not one of Cade, Suggs, Green or Mobley.
The big question is can package our 2 second rounders to move up to get Charles Bassey
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saints91 wrote: View PostGuys the top 4 is head and shoulders above the rest of the draft class. We lucked out huge.
On draft night My TV is going to be thrown out the door if it’s not one of Cade, Suggs, Green or Mobley.
The big question is can package our 2 second rounders to move up to get Charles Bassey
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Yeah, definitely no interest in trading down. You take whoever is left of the top 4 and are ecstatic about it.
The questions really are: does Masai like one of the non-Cade guys enough to try to move to 2 or 3 to grab them? And does Masai trade the pick for an established star? I think the answer to both is no, but I also think both questions are more likely than reaching outside the top 4 or trading down.
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magoon wrote: View Post
The thing is: we don't know what Masai and Bobby's personal draft board looks like, and we're at the most premium spot for a trade because we have the last remaining pick of the Consensus Four Best Guys, who might not be Masai and Bobby's Four Best Guys.
Like, here's a hypothetical: say Orlando wants to trade and get the #4 because they think Jalen Green is a generational talent and he's who's left when the #4 pick rolls around. What if the Raptors don't think Green is a generational talent? (I don't want to start arguing over whether Green is or isn't right now - if you wanna say Mobley or Suggs in this scenario instead, just mentally insert them.) What if they say to Orlando "okay, we'll trade you #4 for #5 and #8" and Orlando goes for it? In that case the Raptors get two lottery picks and the opportunity to draft two guys they think can be franchise players, because that middle tier of 5-12 is full of really promising prospects as well. If you think that's unrealistic, maybe instead consider OKC (with #6 and #16) or Golden State (#7 and #14).
Before we landed #4, we were debating whether the likes of Barnes or Giddey or Keon or Bouknight or Springer were potentially as good an outcome as getting one of the big four. Now the question is: is getting two of them as good an outcome as getting one of the big four? Because that's very likely on the table.
Does sound to me though, from what little I have read, that there is a group of 4 and then everybody else. I am a firm believer in doing the obvious thing. Teams and front offices often get in trouble when they try and get too cute by half.
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DanH wrote: View PostYeah, definitely no interest in trading down. You take whoever is left of the top 4 and are ecstatic about it.
The questions really are: does Masai like one of the non-Cade guys enough to try to move to 2 or 3 to grab them? And does Masai trade the pick for an established star? I think the answer to both is no, but I also think both questions are more likely than reaching outside the top 4 or trading down.
I don't think Fred will be enough and I just don't see any star who fits the roster from a skills-wise standpoint, as well as from a salary standpoint. If Simmons was on a cheaper contract I would say YES. I also just think realistically Philly wants to compete now not develop some other guy. I just don't see value in trading for a guy you will have to develop while he takes up 30 million in capspace. It is one thing if it was trading for a guy like OG. A guy like Simmons will be making max money and you will end up being stuck with him while trying to develop his jumper. Either he gets better motion-wise with his current hand or he switches to his natural hand. Either way that development to turn him into an AVERAGE shooter would take likely 2 years if you are thinking realistic scenarios. There is also a chance he never fully develops it. I would argue that it would be better to maintain the asset in the 4th pick and develop someone like that. Plus you have the chance to mold a guy from day one in your system. Much higher chance of someone being loyal to the raptors if they were developed in the system.
I can see them attempting to trade up for Mobley, or someone like Green if they sense something from workouts and interviews, however as you mentioned it is somewhat unlikely. I can see it happening though. I think it would be a cheaper option. Attaching our current pick and a future first-rounder could allow us to move up and may be worth it. I don't know if I would pay a ton more than that but yeah. It would also be a cheaper asset wise especially if you think Mobley could contribute sooner rather than later. I would argue the same with Houston. Boucher, our pick and a future pick perhaps. Again though I would argue that Cleveland is the team that I would target to make sure you have the ability to choose the person you want.
If you REALLY see a guy you like, you take him. I wouldn't flirt with danger here. If they really feel like Barnes' weakness in his jumper is overblown. Go for it. I would argue that him shooting alone in a gym is not enough information and I doubt he miraculously develops into that guy right away. I am also ok with not drafting someone who is redundant with our positional strength right now.
I want a playmaker who can play defense, with the upside of being able to drive and kick or drive and score. Suggs would be one of those guys. Mobley is the other. We aren't getting Cade without giving up significant assets.
Dream Scenario would be trading FVV and the #4 and maybe one other future asset for Cade. Resigning Lowry. THAT would be wow. Or even two picks. I just don't think Detroit would want to flirt around with that either.
Trading down is dangerous in general and again I would prefer not to have two rookies who you need to develop and give serious playtime to develop at the same time. I know we have done it before. Technically we did it with Flynn and Harris last year. There have been other years too. I just would argue that this may not be the year to do it. UNLESS you believe so much in Kuminga, and that you can develop him. Although you would have to develop him into a Wing/Guard Player. Again though too much variance in that outcome.
This all comes down to whether or not you truly believe that we should be trying to compete and can compete in the next 3 years. I believe we can. I also believe that if we fail to properly contend within that timeline, I have always wanted the piece that can be used to build around moving forward. Suggs could represent that. Mobley DEFINITELY represents that, since it would mean significantly shifting the roster construction around his skill set. (I still think he works as is). I also think Green could represent that as well. Listening to their interviews too is interesting. To me, Green looks good but he comes across as slightly immature compared to Suggs. Mobley is interesting as well.
Either way getting any of those 3 not named Cade, EVEN if we got Kuminga. We should be more than happy. I think after watching as much film as I have and reading up on these guys. I feel confident saying there is a gap between the top 4 and the 5th guy. I also think the gap between those 4 and the next set of players is big enough to not warrant a trade down unless it's to remain in the top 5 in which case just pick the 5th guy at 4.
This draft may turn out like the 2003 draft. By that I mean the draft ended up with the majority of the top tier talent pooled at the top of the draft specifically in the top 6 picks. See that like our top 5. With a few steals beyond that yes.
Also, we have other assets we can trade to get into the teens. We have our two second-rounders and we have guys like Boucher, Yuta, and others as well as Hood and Baynes to help us get there salary-wise if we need to take on a contract.
I don't think we need to take on a bad contract though.
Anyways those are my thoughts. I am glad we no longer have to discuss guys like Davion. I am glad that we can focus on the top top prospects and it isn't a dream anymore. Usually, if we ever talk about prospects we end up all agreeing that we would have to trade up to get into the lottery/top tier positions with these ridiculous trades to try to make it work. This time it is real. We have a chance at a prospect who could really shift the franchise moving forward, and really define the next core after Fred, OG, and Siakam. It could be OG, this pick, and someone else in the future.
I am happy and everyone else should be VERY happy. Would be nicer if we had a top 2 pick but this is not the worst outcome at all. We came out as winners.
Also just edited to apologize for the long post.
Last edited by TrueTorontoFan; Wed Jun 23, 2021, 10:17 AM.
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slaw wrote: View Post
Well, if you can trade #4 for #5 and #8 and get the guy you were going to take at 4 anyway then of course you do that. You'd be an idiot not to do that.
Does sound to me though, from what little I have read, that there is a group of 4 and then everybody else. I am a firm believer in doing the obvious thing. Teams and front offices often get in trouble when they try and get too cute by half.
Top 2: Cade/Green
3/4: Suggs/Mobley
I'm all in on Jalen Green, but with the success of Devin Booker, I think he's long gone by #4. Most likely the Rockets will draft him. Also, the Cavs gave up a FRP for Jarrett Allen's bird rights so he's a lock to re-sign... so do they really need another young center? I think their move is to trade Sexton and draft Suggs, which leaves us with Mobley.
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golden wrote: View Post
Yeah, let's hope the Cavs hold true to form and pick Kuminga. And the Magic really covet Mobley. That said, a lot of what I'm reading this morning has the draft going like this:
Top 2: Cade/Green
3/4: Suggs/Mobley
I'm all in on Jalen Green, but with the success of Devin Booker, I think he's long gone by #4. Most likely the Rockets will draft him. Also, the Cavs gave up a FRP for Jarrett Allen's bird rights so he's a lock to re-sign... so do they really need another young center? I think their move is to trade Sexton and draft Suggs, which leaves us with Mobley.
Green would make sense for them for sure.. but can he work with Kevin Porter Jr who plays his spot? John Wall is still there, and has another 2 years on his deal.. so can't really move Porter to PG.
The Cavs are interesting because I suspect they'll actually try to trade that pick. They suck at drafting and are probably looking for win now talent. Package 3 with Love to get something substantial? Maybe try to get Simmons from Philly? I bet Philly would think hard about that offer.
The Cavs need a playmaker, and not necessarily a shooter since they have Sexton and Garland in their back court.
Philly could then use #3 to take Green, leaving us with Suggs.
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