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Everything Draft 2021
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MixxAOR wrote: View PostBosh couldn't win in his era but that has no effect on this era. If Bosh played right now who is his competition? Sabonis? Randle? Porzingis? There's no KG in this era, no Dirk, no Pau Gasol, no Tim Duncan. Only real competition is Anthony Davis, Giannis. Bosh would play a lot of center too so he would be tough matchup wise.
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LJ2 wrote: View PostCade is the only guy that fits that description Puff. The others have enough holes in their games right now to create doubts whether they they will ever meet all those goals
Mobley being a big is never going to be an elite scorer that can get buckets at the end of a game.
Green is going to have to learn to slow down because he plays very fast being a superior athlete. That won't be the case when he plays NBA teams. And he's not known for being a great defender. Suggs isn't a great shooter right now and without elite size or athleticism can he get clutch buckets?
Mobley helps us the most I think, allows us to start our most talented 5 without someone coming off the bench. Would mean our go to scorers are Siakam and FVV again though and that isn't what you want. Definitely a trade would be needed at some point for a lead scorer.
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The Great One wrote: View PostI nailed the Malachi Flynn pick last year. Here are some of the prospects tha t i'd love to see them target in the 2nd round this year.
Kessler Edwards
Bleijenbergh
Queta
Jericho Sims
Josh Christopher
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TrueTorontoFan wrote: View PostBarnes is someone I would like at 7.... or 6... not at 4 simples as that start from a higher fundamental bace.. even if barnes is better than he was in college shooting he has a long way to go and no he is not a scorer stop pushing that. he isn't there.. maybe he gets there but guess what there are people who are already there at the same age who all will work just as hard.
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The Coach wrote: View PostI did an exercise about a month ago (when I thought we had the 7th pick). I took all of Masai's past draft picks and scouted what they were best at according to nbadraft.net (which is definitely not ideal but was the easiest for this exercise). It was very obvious that Defense was rated very high on his priority list so I doubled that category in its weighting which is totally subjective and absolutely influenced this mock "draft board." I then took the other categories that were important based on previous players strengths and so you can see below what categories that left me with. I did not order them in any specific order after their "Total" number so it created Tiers:
Tier 1 - Mobley, Johnson, Mitchell, Barnes
Tier 2 - Green, Suggs, Springer
Tier 3 - Cunningham, Moody, Jones
Tier 4 - Kuminga, Kispert
Tier 5 - etc...
Feel free to rip it apart but know that these are not my personal Tiers and I'm less interested in an argument about how bad nbadraft's info is and much more interested in hearing RR's thoughts on:
1. What categories do you think move up in importance when you are drafting in the top 5?
(Complete list of nbadraft categories: Athleticism, Size, Defense, Strength, Quickness, Leadership, Jump Shot, NBA Ready, Ball Handling, Potential, Passing, Intangibles, Rebounding, Post Skills)
2. What are your top 5 categories if you're drafting for the Raptors?​​​​​​Defense Athleticism Quickness NBA Ready Intangibles TOTAL Evan Mobley 18 9 9 7 7 50 Keon Johnson 18 9 9 6 8 50 Davion Mitchell 18 7 9 8 8 50 Scottie Barnes 18 8 8 8 8 50 Jalen Green 16 9 9 7 8 49 Jalen Suggs 16 8 8 8 9 49 Jaden Springer 18 8 8 7 8 49 Cade Cunningham 16 8 7 8 9 48 Moses Moody 16 8 8 8 8 48 Kai Jones 16 9 9 6 8 48 Jonathan Kuminga 14 9 8 8 7 46 Corey Kispert 14 7 7 9 9 46 Jalen Johnson 16 8 8 7 6 45 Josh Christopher 14 9 8 7 7 45 Johnny Juzang 14 7 7 8 9 45
PS - I adjusted Scottie Barnes Defense to a 9 (it was an 8 on nbadraft and I feel quite confident it should have been higher).
PPS - nbadraft also didn't have anything for the international prospects so they are not accounted for here
If I'm drafting for the raptors, my priority is unassisted shot-creation. That doesn't quite fit the standard categories you summarized there, but it's what the Raptors need the most right now.
We have enough above average defenders, ball handlers, and "guys that do all the little things that don't show on the stat sheet". These are very likeable, important archetype every team needs, and I'm glad with have them, but it's time to get a score-first player. We need more gravity/spacing on our offence: someone that can attract double-coverage out of an iso possession, by being able to score from inside, midrange and from deep, off-the dribble . That's the best way to initiate cracks on an opposing D when your half-court sets are stalling against set playoff defences.
That to me puts Green and Cade on the highest tier (if you're the raptors). Though like most, I would also be very happy with Mobley or Suggs.
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LJ2 wrote: View Post
The thing is that Barnes is considered to have a higher ceiling than some of the the guys which people are saying will go ahead of him. Sort of like Keon. Will be interesting if some team takes a big chance on him.
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inthepaint wrote: View Post
I think teams look for different things depending on which point they are in their cycle (win-now or rebuild). If it's win-now, they'll priorotize thins like nba-ready, passing, jump shot etc. Most of the time though, teams drafting high will have an eye in the future, and will prioritize thins you can't teach (or a harder to teach) with time: Athleticism, size/strength, quickness, ball handling.
If I'm drafting for the raptors, my priority is unassisted shot-creation. That doesn't quite fit the standard categories you summarized there, but it's what the Raptors need the most right now.
We have enough above average defenders, ball handlers, and "guys that do all the little things that don't show on the stat sheet". These are very likeable, important archetype every team needs, and I'm glad with have them, but it's time to get a score-first player. We need more gravity/spacing on our offence: someone that can attract double-coverage out of an iso possession, by being able to score from inside, midrange and from deep, off-the dribble . That's the best way to initiate cracks on an opposing D when your half-court sets are stalling against set playoff defences.
That to me puts Green and Cade on the highest tier (if you're the raptors). Though like most, I would also be very happy with Mobley or Suggs.
Cade obviously has both sets. Green looks like he has the shot creation. Suggs looks like he can develop it abit but he has something.
Mobley has the playmaking at an elite skill lever and the shot and moves are really good enough.
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LJ2 wrote: View Post
The thing is that Barnes is considered to have a higher ceiling than some of the the guys which people are saying will go ahead of him. Sort of like Keon. Will be interesting if some team takes a big chance on him.
he can guard 1 and 2 at the very least. He is a 6’9 point guard without question…he probably has the best passing in the draft maybe. All he has to do is hit open shots that’s it.
point guard job is to bring the ball up get the offence going, hit open shots cause as a point guard you shouldn’t be the first option and play defence. He is missing one skill and experience.
barnes OG pascal Fred….Center it’s scary if we find a CenterLast edited by grindhouse; Sun Jul 4, 2021, 09:49 PM.
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TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post
I agree with this mostly except a few things. First of all with the right playmaking and a decent shot you can have someone who can create for themselves and others at an elite rate and if you combine it with other playmakers like siakam or shooters then you really have something special.
Cade obviously has both sets. Green looks like he has the shot creation. Suggs looks like he can develop it abit but he has something.
Mobley has the playmaking at an elite skill lever and the shot and moves are really good enough.
Jazz - Mitchel 26.4
Clippers - Kawhi 24.8
Suns - Booker 25.6
Nuggs - Jokic 26.4
Sixers - Embiid 28.5
Hawks - Young 25.3
Bucks - Giannis 28.1
Nets - Durant 26.9
Siakam is a great 2-way player but if he's the focus of the opposing defence (while himself typically drained by a tough defensive assignment), he's not doing that. He's going to give you ~20 on high usage and low efficiency. That's with or without Lowry and/or Fred. The sample has been large enough for us to know that with confidence. That's not a knock on Siakam, it's just that players that can do that are actually quite rare.
Now don't get me wrong, Siakam can give you 20/5/5 on a playoff run (with elite defence to boot), on a moderate usage and better efficiency, and that's difference-making and extremely valuable and impactful on a playoff run. That's roughly what Middleton, Tobias Harris and Paul George averaged on the season, and they were the hero of several playoff games. For a lot of games though, these 3 had one thing in common: A bucket machine teammate attracting double teams and sucking the energy and attention out of the opposing defence (and still putting up 25 on the board)
Siakam had that in 2019 too, and the end-result was him being part of the 2nd highest scoring duo in playoff history and a championship (which we certainly don't win without Siakam's high impact on both ends). Now, If you give him more Lowrys, Freds and OGs, as awesome as these players all are, we sadly ain't going anywhere. Like, I can't live without a screwdriver in my toolbox, but if I already have 8 of them there, I should probably look for a hammer.Last edited by inthepaint; Mon Jul 5, 2021, 12:54 AM.
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inthepaint wrote: View Post
I think teams look for different things depending on which point they are in their cycle (win-now or rebuild). If it's win-now, they'll priorotize thins like nba-ready, passing, jump shot etc. Most of the time though, teams drafting high will have an eye in the future, and will prioritize thins you can't teach (or a harder to teach) with time: Athleticism, size/strength, quickness, ball handling.
If I'm drafting for the raptors, my priority is unassisted shot-creation. That doesn't quite fit the standard categories you summarized there, but it's what the Raptors need the most right now.
We have enough above average defenders, ball handlers, and "guys that do all the little things that don't show on the stat sheet". These are very likeable, important archetype every team needs, and I'm glad with have them, but it's time to get a score-first player. We need more gravity/spacing on our offence: someone that can attract double-coverage out of an iso possession, by being able to score from inside, midrange and from deep, off-the dribble . That's the best way to initiate cracks on an opposing D when your half-court sets are stalling against set playoff defences.
That to me puts Green and Cade on the highest tier (if you're the raptors). Though like most, I would also be very happy with Mobley or Suggs.
I have seen a lot of Raptor fans looking for that Shot-creator/maker trait... we obviously needed that this year and in watching the playoffs I can see the intrigue. I'm also so fascinated by what Masai does because for the most part he has shown that Shooting can be developed when he picks later... but being in the top 5 seems to change the game for me. I was listening to a podcast recently that talked about the top of the draft should provide higher floors AND higher ceilings. I'm super intrigued by Barnes' ceiling but think his floor is lower than a Green.
I'm curious who you're 5th would be on your Raptor draft board?“Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
― John Wooden
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The Coach wrote: View Post
First off... appreciate you taking up the conversation on my original post.
I have seen a lot of Raptor fans looking for that Shot-creator/maker trait... we obviously needed that this year and in watching the playoffs I can see the intrigue. I'm also so fascinated by what Masai does because for the most part he has shown that Shooting can be developed when he picks later... but being in the top 5 seems to change the game for me. I was listening to a podcast recently that talked about the top of the draft should provide higher floors AND higher ceilings. I'm super intrigued by Barnes' ceiling but think his floor is lower than a Green.
I'm curious who you're 5th would be on your Raptor draft board?
The other thing to consider is your odds as a franchise to get this type of player through other means. There's only 3 ways to add to your team: Draft, trade, or free agency. We're not a free agent destination, and trades for a high-end 25+ ppg playoff scorer usually requires you to send enough assets that the move is close to lateral a lot of times.
That leaves the draft as pretty much your only way to do it. That's why you swing for the player that you think is most likely to give you that, and with good coaching (which we have) try to develop/fix other holes in the game. If it's defence, protect them with simpler assignments, zones, double coverages etc. It's what they did with Booker, and Trae Young this year, as well as Harden and Steph Curry in the past.Last edited by inthepaint; Mon Jul 5, 2021, 12:52 AM.
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inthepaint wrote: View PostIf I'm drafting for the raptors, my priority is unassisted shot-creation. That doesn't quite fit the standard categories you summarized there, but it's what the Raptors need the most right now.
Devin Booker 31.32
Zach Lavine 39.58
Donovan Mitchell 76.68
Trae Young 81.56
But Booker and LaVine were clearly able to find their own shots! So it's kind of a grab bag. And it doesn't necessarily translate, because there are plenty of guys with super-high unassisted scoring stats in college who couldn't translate that to the NBA because they weren't athletic enough to maneuver around the court past NBA-level athletes, or their shooting regressed, or they were smaller point guards who couldn't become floor generals in the NBA as needed, or they were in a college system that de-emphasized their flaws, or whatever.
And, since I know everybody is wondering: here are the self-creation percentages for everybody in the consensus top 50 prospects who scored at least 20ppg this year in the NCAA (obviously this excludes the G-Leaguers and internationals), plus all of the "top tier" guys who didn't score 20ppg but would likely be expected/hoped to do so given their draft position:
Corey Kispert 32.49
Matthew Hurt 33.30
Joshua Primo 33.58
Bones Hyland 50.35
Cameron Thomas 55.67
Ayo Dosunmu 62.07
Evan Mobley 63.25
James Bouknight 64.46
Jalen Suggs 65.78
Max Abmas 67.82
Cade Cunningham 71.99
Scottie Barnes 72.46
Sharife Cooper 80.46
Tre Mann 82.31
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