Game #9 Toronto Raptors vs Golden State Warriors - Jan 10th - 830pm EST

[LJ2]

well that's why they call it Win Now move.

Would you rather make trades for role players or stars? Trading for stars will gut your roster and when they walk as was the case with Kawhi, you're set back with an empty cupboard of assets and a long timeline before returning to contention.

[LJ2]

Thomas isn't playing because we have too many guards. And I totally agree about Norm. He'll have a 25pt game eventually but it's too little, too late. The guy is too inconsistent, and garbage when he can't produce. Trade him for a center. Move Thomas back in the rotation.

The problem with Boucher is that he'd foul out by the second quarter. We need to keep him for the end of the game.. which is the most important part of the game.

See, I think they need to play Boucher to get him to learn to not foul out of the game. He doesn't develop unless he's put in those situations.

He's by far the best big we have right now and his game is perfect for what the Raps need. Just needs to get better, stronger etc.

[MixxAOR]

Would you rather make trades for role players or stars? Trading for stars will gut your roster and when they walk as was the case with Kawhi, you're set back with an empty cupboard of assets and a long timeline before returning to contention.

I'm not a fan of trading picks for role players. When you trade for star you gotta make sure he has good players to play with after trade.

[golden]

I'm saying that trading Kyle alone won't get us a top 5 pick.. we will still be too good with Pascal/Fred (we saw that against the Kangz). Plus when we trade Kyle it will be to a competitor.. not a team like OKC that wants assets not veterans that can help them win.. that's counterintuitive for them. It will be to a team like LAC/Philly/Dallas/Denver/etc.. meaning we will get contracts back.. essentially mid-level type of contracts. We'll get depth/bench pieces.. type of pieces we got for Gay that got us to 48 wins.

We need to trade Kyle for fungible players AND lose one of Pascal/Fred to become a bottom 5 team. I think both need to happen.

If there are no options and we want to go full tank, we could waive Kyle at the deadline and let him sign with whoever he wants and get nothing back. Or we could trade Lowry for role players and waive those pieces. Lowry for Conley + pick might be something the Jazz would look into as an upgrade... and then we waive or flip Conley.

But are we really going to use Sacto as the measuring stick to indicate a Fred/Pascal core is way too talented? Once Lowry is gone, just wait until opposing teams adjust and game-plan to that new reality.

[planetmars]

If there are no options and we want to go full tank, we could waive Kyle at the deadline and let him sign with whoever he wants and get nothing back. Or we could trade Lowry for role players and waive those pieces. Lowry for Conley + pick might be something the Jazz would look into as an upgrade... and then we waive or flip Conley.

But are we really going to use Sacto as the measuring stick to indicate a Fred/Pascal core is way too talented? Once Lowry is gone, just wait until opposing teams adjust and game-plan to that new reality.

It's too talented to get a top 5 pick IMO.. There is a fine line between being an 8th seed in the East and being a bottom 5 team. That line isn't just trading Kyle.. it's also losing one Fred/Pascal.

Sacramento is the barometer for that bottom 5 pick. And we're better than them without Kyle, which is a problem if you want to tank.

Isn't Conley balling so far this year?

[golden]

It's too talented to get a top 5 pick IMO.. There is a fine line between being an 8th seed in the East and being a bottom 5 team. That line isn't just trading Kyle.. it's also losing one Fred/Pascal.

Sacramento is the barometer for that bottom 5 pick. And we're better than them without Kyle, which is a problem if you want to tank.

Isn't Conley balling so far this year?

If you add Nurse into the 'talent' picture, then I might agree with you, because the Kangz have more on-court talent than us on paper, but have possibly the worst coach in the NBA.

Fred and Pascal, IMO, is more than enough to get you a bottom 5 pick. You're vastly overrating those guys. Pascal is already #1 on opposition gameplans and his efficiency dropped. Just wait until Fred is the defacto lead PG, with no Lowry bailout options to consider. The offense will become FVV & Pascal freezing out the rest of the squad, which will be pretty easy to stop and even harder to watch. TBH, the only thing keeping us from having the worst record in the NBA is Boucher keeping the bench afloat... and who could have predicted how good he was going to be?

A one game Friday night sample size vs. the Luke Walton coached Kangz, where our entire bench went nuts, means absolutely nothing.

And Conley goes hot and cold, so let's hope....

[Jclaw]

Wonder what’s up with Kyle. Weird post game quotes of not having his head in the game. Anyways, maybe it’s the championship glow but that was a fun game

[planetmars]

If you add Nurse into the 'talent' picture, then I might agree with you, because the Kangz have more on-court talent than us on paper, but have possibly the worst coach in the NBA.

Fred and Pascal, IMO, is more than enough to get you a bottom 5 pick. You're vastly overrating those guys. Pascal is already #1 on opposition gameplans and his efficiency dropped. Just wait until Fred is the defacto lead PG, with no Lowry bailout options to consider. The offense will become FVV & Pascal freezing out the rest of the squad, which will be pretty easy to stop and even harder to watch. TBH, the only thing keeping us from having the worst record in the NBA is Boucher keeping the bench afloat... and who could have predicted how good he was going to be?

A one game Friday night sample size vs. the Luke Walton coached Kangz, where our entire bench went nuts, means absolutely nothing.

And Conley goes hot and cold, so let's hope....

Maybe I am overrating them.. but my guess is that we trade Kyle we'll get back a center. The ideal situation is to get a bad, unplayable contract and a pick(s).. so that we get really bad with those new players. If you want to really tank, then the sooner we pull that trade of the better. We'd rattle off too many wins if we traded him by the deadline.

So the last thing we should get from a hypothetical Lowry trade to get a top 5 pick this year is a center. We should be looking at another PG or an injured player or a collection of unplayable players that make the team worse. Like another team's version of Patrick McCaw.


Again this is if you are pro-tank. I'm not. I'd rather keep Lowry. Give him a contract so he sticks around and add to this group. We need a center badly though, and I'd flip Norm to get that center.

[golden]

Maybe I am overrating them.. but my guess is that we trade Kyle we'll get back a center. The ideal situation is to get a bad, unplayable contract and a pick(s).. so that we get really bad with those new players. If you want to really tank, then the sooner we pull that trade of the better. We'd rattle off too many wins if we traded him by the deadline.

So the last thing we should get from a hypothetical Lowry trade to get a top 5 pick this year is a center. We should be looking at another PG or an injured player or a collection of unplayable players that make the team worse. Like another team's version of Patrick McCaw.

Again this is if you are pro-tank. I'm not. I'd rather keep Lowry. Give him a contract so he sticks around and add to this group. We need a center badly though, and I'd flip Norm to get that center.

I see where you're coming from. The ideal player is somebody who people think is really good, like 2014 Rudy Gay, but analytics shows that he always makes your team worse. Wiggins and Harrison Barnes kind of fit into that mold. Zach Lavine used to be that guy, but he may be turning the corner this year. Sign and trade FVV for Zach Lavine was my #1 hope/wish for this past off-season, other than keeping the Giannis dream alive.

But is re-signing Lowry and persisting with the micro-sized starting backcourt eating up almost 80 minutes per game, really the way to move this franchise forward? If you re-sign Lowry, then I think you sell high on Fred for a shot creating SG with size.

[The Great One]

I see where you're coming from. The ideal player is somebody who people think is really good, like 2014 Rudy Gay, but analytics shows that he always makes your team worse. Wiggins and Harrison Barnes kind of fit into that mold. Zach Lavine used to be that guy, but he may be turning the corner this year. Sign and trade FVV for Zach Lavine was my #1 hope/wish for this past off-season, other than keeping the Giannis dream alive.

But is re-signing Lowry and persisting with the micro-sized starting backcourt eating up almost 80 minutes per game, really the way to move this franchise forward? If you re-sign Lowry, then I think you sell high on Fred for a shot creating SG with size.

Why would the Bulls trade LaVine for FVV? that makes zero sense whatsoever. LaVine is one of the elite scorers in the game and he's only 25(FVV is actually older than LaVine). Plus, the Bulls have a legit young PG in Coby White.

I'd love to see them trade Kyle for a young raw player. who you think has potential to be good. Like a Cam Reddish of the Hawks.

[planetmars]

I see where you're coming from. The ideal player is somebody who people think is really good, like 2014 Rudy Gay, but analytics shows that he always makes your team worse. Wiggins and Harrison Barnes kind of fit into that mold. Zach Lavine used to be that guy, but he may be turning the corner this year. Sign and trade FVV for Zach Lavine was my #1 hope/wish for this past off-season, other than keeping the Giannis dream alive.

But is re-signing Lowry and persisting with the micro-sized starting backcourt eating up almost 80 minutes per game, really the way to move this franchise forward? If you re-sign Lowry, then I think you sell high on Fred for a shot creating SG with size.

My short term wish list (ie, by next summer):

- Resign Kyle to a team friendly deal (3 years, $30M)
- Trade Fred for someone like Beal
- Trade Norm and pieces for a better center (may have to wait for the deadline to attach an expiring like Baynes/McCaw)
- Use cap space or use the mid-level to get a tradeable contract for a future transaction. I'd try to get someone like Barton, Fournier, Schroder, Hardaway jr.

I don't think winning via lottery picks is the right approach, unless you do what the Warriors/Spurs did (losing by injury). For me, it's winning by getting tradeable contracts, drafting well, and using them to get a win now piece. Like we did with Kawhi. But I do think Fred/Lowry needs to be broken up.

Fred's playing well and that just means his trade value is going up and up

[Kagemusha]

My short term wish list (ie, by next summer):

- Resign Kyle to a team friendly deal (3 years, $30M)
- Trade Fred for someone like Beal
- Trade Norm and pieces for a better center (may have to wait for the deadline to attach an expiring like Baynes/McCaw)
- Use cap space or use the mid-level to get a tradeable contract for a future transaction. I'd try to get someone like Barton, Fournier, Schroder, Hardaway jr.

I don't think winning via lottery picks is the right approach, unless you do what the Warriors/Spurs did (losing by injury). For me, it's winning by getting tradeable contracts, drafting well, and using them to get a win now piece. Like we did with Kawhi. But I do think Fred/Lowry needs to be broken up.

Fred's playing well and that just means his trade value is going up and up

You lost me at Fred for Beal.
Seriously.

[planetmars]

You lost me at Fred for Beal.
Seriously.

It wouldn't just be Fred for Beal.. something like Fred/Davis and a FRP.. or 2FRP for Beal.

[G__Deane]

Would you rather make trades for role players or stars? Trading for stars will gut your roster and when they walk as was the case with Kawhi, you're set back with an empty cupboard of assets and a long timeline before returning to contention.

-You need a superstar to win it all, well documented.

-If you trade for one, you gut your team with no guarantee of winning, fans need to understand that getting Kawhi and subsequently winning it all is a once in a lifetime outlier.

-That means you need to draft one (takes years to develop or multiple drafts to find) or else you sign one in FA which costs you nothing but cash. But we know how many elite FA sign here despite some of the best Management in the NBA and an all-league Coach and a minor history of winning (now better than lots of teams).

So where do we go from here? The same as if Kawhi had come and we lost in the ECF or finals .... just happy to make the post season and have a pro NBA team in Toronto where you have a shot to be in the Finals every 20-30 years...and it sucks.

[Shredder]

My short term wish list (ie, by next summer):

- Resign Kyle to a team friendly deal (3 years, $30M)
- Trade Fred for someone like Beal
- Trade Norm and pieces for a better center (may have to wait for the deadline to attach an expiring like Baynes/McCaw)
- Use cap space or use the mid-level to get a tradeable contract for a future transaction. I'd try to get someone like Barton, Fournier, Schroder, Hardaway jr.

I don't think winning via lottery picks is the right approach, unless you do what the Warriors/Spurs did (losing by injury). For me, it's winning by getting tradeable contracts, drafting well, and using them to get a win now piece. Like we did with Kawhi. But I do think Fred/Lowry needs to be broken up.

Fred's playing well and that just means his trade value is going up and up

We might be losing because lack of a "Home." I know professional players are asked to move at a moments notice all the time. Some players adapt quickly, others take a bit. We have rarely seen a whole team have to do this with little notice. Some guys have found homes, others are still in a hotel. I don't know what everyone's family situation is, but if most of them kept their families at their summer homes, guys are not around their kids. If they did bring their families, their families are potentially struggling to adapt to the new situation, which would put pressure on them off the court.

This situation is like something we have never seen. The warriors spurs model was injury, but this could be a talented team (obviously we've lost players) playing down because of off court issues no one has every seen before.

I don't think we will stay this low throughout the season, but say we are playing bad until the trade deadline. We could start to ditch some players that might not be in the long term future. Say Norm, Baynes, McCaw, Johnson, Lowry(I would hate to do him in particular, but I understand. I would love to see him retire a raptor and mentor the next wave). Maybe we get an ok player and a decent draft pick. We own our own. We have a bunch of cap space next year. We could potentially take our pick, the pick we get in a trade and a future pick to move up in the draft. Draft a potential stud, then go searching to another young player through restricted free agency.