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Game #9 Toronto Raptors vs Golden State Warriors - Jan 10th - 830pm EST

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  • golden wrote: View Post

    Which is exactly how a team should run itself if it is all about competing for titles. But ownership and management have to have the courage of their convictions to see it through. Sports franchises are in the business of selling hope to their fanbase, but if they buy what they themselves are selling you can have a team mired in mediocrity for a long, long time. All slowing down a rebuild will accomplish is slowing down the rebuild.

    Raptors fans have a taste of competing for and winning titles now. I'm only interested in competing to win titles or rebuilding to compete to win titles in another window. As soon as possible. And I find building, developing players, drafting players fun. I find a good plan fun to watch, and I'll continue to watch this team all year if there is a plan I can get behind regardless of record.

    Trading Lowry will accelerate a rebuild. It will then make the team FVV and Siakam's team - it'll be their responsibility. Lowry is such a big personality, I think it might help Siakam to take some responsibility for leadership. But also not being in a win-now mindset I think will be helpful to Siakam to play / learn the right way and develop in to the best player he can be. I've seen some really encouraging signs from him the last few games. He seems like he's trying hard and he has his head right, which is a change from the beginning of the season. Trading Lowry will provide more minutes for Flynn, it will provide a clear switch to FVV running the offence and provide him time to develop in to that role.

    If Lowry can be traded to somewhere he wants to go, I'll also really enjoy watching him compete to win another title. I love that guy. But he has real value in this league. We have to capitalize on that if Lowry is open to a new challenge. This team is going nowhere as currently constructed. If we can find a good fit for Lowry we'll get value back (should it be a pick or a young player with upside), we'll develop our core, and we'll have the opportunity to have a (much) higher draft pick in an apparent strong draft class. Being able to add a key player in the draft could also have the benefit of making us a more appealing free agent destination next offseason.

    I view rebuilding now as the quickest and most painless way to move forward. The other choice I think is a longer and more painful period of losing that will ultimately lead to a longer rebuild.

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    • G__Deane wrote: View Post

      -You need a superstar to win it all, well documented.

      -If you trade for one, you gut your team with no guarantee of winning, fans need to understand that getting Kawhi and subsequently winning it all is a once in a lifetime outlier.

      -That means you need to draft one (takes years to develop or multiple drafts to find) or else you sign one in FA which costs you nothing but cash. But we know how many elite FA sign here despite some of the best Management in the NBA and an all-league Coach and a minor history of winning (now better than lots of teams).

      So where do we go from here? The same as if Kawhi had come and we lost in the ECF or finals .... just happy to make the post season and have a pro NBA team in Toronto where you have a shot to be in the Finals every 20-30 years...and it sucks.
      TBH, what really messed up the re-build was massively overachieving last year, combined with the Giannis cap-space gambit backfiring.

      A team that loses a top 3 player usually falls off the map the following year, but the Raps had their highest winning percentage regular season ever. That lead to a false belief that their was some intrinsic winning DNA in the current core (FVV, Pascal, OG), that transcended Kawhi, and possibly even Lowry.

      A normal rebuilding scenario would have been to trade Lowry, Gasol and Ibaka to contenders at the deadline for assets & prospects, like OKC is doing. Lowry, in particular, would have had a much higher trade value with one year left on his contract, than as a rental this year.

      That said, last year's victory lap year was hella fun. So, we're paying the price this year for a 1-yr delayed teardown. Sobering up is never fun.

      Comment


      • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

        Seriously, you're not impressed by Cunningham?
        Jalen Green looks like a Westbrook to me.
        Mobley is solid, so is Kuminga.

        If you're waiting for a generational talent like Luka and Giannis, you need to have extreme amount of luck and perfent timing to be able to snag one.
        Jalen Suggs looks VERY good too. I haven't watched too many kids in this draft class but I've seen a lot of Suggs. Reminds of Brandon Roy.

        The idea that we have to draft the next generational talent in order for this draft to be worthwhile doesn't make sense. If we can add a starting calibre player in this draft - with upside, that will be huge.

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        • Shredder wrote: View Post

          We might be losing because lack of a "Home." I know professional players are asked to move at a moments notice all the time. Some players adapt quickly, others take a bit. We have rarely seen a whole team have to do this with little notice. Some guys have found homes, others are still in a hotel. I don't know what everyone's family situation is, but if most of them kept their families at their summer homes, guys are not around their kids. If they did bring their families, their families are potentially struggling to adapt to the new situation, which would put pressure on them off the court.

          This situation is like something we have never seen. The warriors spurs model was injury, but this could be a talented team (obviously we've lost players) playing down because of off court issues no one has every seen before.

          I don't think we will stay this low throughout the season, but say we are playing bad until the trade deadline. We could start to ditch some players that might not be in the long term future. Say Norm, Baynes, McCaw, Johnson, Lowry(I would hate to do him in particular, but I understand. I would love to see him retire a raptor and mentor the next wave). Maybe we get an ok player and a decent draft pick. We own our own. We have a bunch of cap space next year. We could potentially take our pick, the pick we get in a trade and a future pick to move up in the draft. Draft a potential stud, then go searching to another young player through restricted free agency.
          Yeah, not playing in Toronto would impact these guys for sure. And could be the main reason why we are 2-7.

          But yes, if we continue to suck by the dead line, I'll be pro-tank.. but I think Masai will as well. The deadline is on March 25. Lots of games still have to be played between now and then though.

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          • big boi wrote: View Post

            Jalen Suggs looks VERY good too. I haven't watched too many kids in this draft class but I've seen a lot of Suggs. Reminds of Brandon Roy.

            The idea that we have to draft the next generational talent in order for this draft to be worthwhile doesn't make sense. If we can add a starting calibre player in this draft - with upside, that will be huge.
            Yeah, we basically just need a guy with decent size, who can dribble in traffic, and create his own shot in the half-court.

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            • planetmars wrote: View Post

              Yeah, not playing in Toronto would impact these guys for sure. And could be the main reason why we are 2-7.

              But yes, if we continue to suck by the dead line, I'll be pro-tank.. but I think Masai will as well. The deadline is on March 25. Lots of games still have to be played between now and then though.
              I would be surprised if many, or any, teams did much before mid-March. There is so much uncertainty this season it strikes me teams won't be making big trades until they at least know the season is going to play out and they aren't on a 10-game losing streak cause half their guys can't play.

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              • Jclaw wrote: View Post
                Wonder what’s up with Kyle. Weird post game quotes of not having his head in the game. Anyways, maybe it’s the championship glow but that was a fun game
                Combine his game off for personal reasons with Masai walking in with him last games, both looking pretty sombre and Kyle's post game comments. I'm tell you, something's up (or down) and it could be Kyle's mental health. He wants the joy that Pascal lost....

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                • planetmars wrote: View Post

                  My short term wish list (ie, by next summer):

                  - Resign Kyle to a team friendly deal (3 years, $30M)
                  - Trade Fred for someone like Beal

                  Fred's playing well and that just means his trade value is going up and up
                  Oh man, plz pass whatever you're smoking, it's the good stuff. I'd trade Kyle for Beal in a heartbeat but that won't happen either.

                  EDIT. Oops just saw your addition, it would take Fred plus a ton to land Beal, that dude is legit and under rated by fans. I wanted him so bad as a FA
                  Last edited by G__Deane; Mon Jan 11, 2021, 02:11 PM.

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                  • Beal is pretty good on offense, but kinda terrible defensively. No thanks. I'd stick with FVV

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                    • Look, I think it's a bit funny the same people bemoaning the fact that Ibaka and Gasol were lost so the team could take a swing at Giannis (more or less what happened) - which is now being viewed as a mistake in some corners - propose the solution is to do more of the same and unload more talent to hit the draft? What are the odds that the Raptors are actually bad enough, then add a player good enough, to even replace assets like Lowry + Powell, let alone improve on them? It's a long shot. The asset cost of letting pieces walk for a FA swing then dumping more for a swing at the ping pong balls is huge. You're literally dumping 3/4 of a championship rotation for a couple pipe dreams.

                      Golden State is no model for a 1 year tank, they managed that because their whole roster was injured for the season. That's like how the Robinson Spurs got Duncan and it's not replicable.

                      Masai should continue with asset management and looking for trades. The Raptors will be a playoff team, they aren't as bad as their W/L record, by a bunch of different metrics. Their team is mostly developing, inexperienced players who are going to increase in value over time. Masai and co. can also add value with late 1sts and even 2nd rounders. They'll restock the cupboard given time.

                      There's no quick fix here that doesn't involve unnecessary risk and/or setting the franchise further back.
                      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                      • Quirk wrote: View Post
                        Beal is pretty good on offense, but kinda terrible defensively. No thanks. I'd stick with FVV
                        Pretty good? He's 35 PPG this season , 30 last year
                        -only tops in the entire league by a long shot.

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                        • big boi wrote: View Post

                          Jalen Suggs looks VERY good too. I haven't watched too many kids in this draft class but I've seen a lot of Suggs. Reminds of Brandon Roy.

                          The idea that we have to draft the next generational talent in order for this draft to be worthwhile doesn't make sense. If we can add a starting calibre player in this draft - with upside, that will be huge.
                          One really high pick would be ideal.
                          And trade to get another pick in the latter rounds.
                          We need a stud wing (or Cunningham) and a modern big ( in the latter rounds).

                          Comment


                          • Quirk wrote: View Post
                            Beal is pretty good on offense, but kinda terrible defensively. No thanks. I'd stick with FVV
                            Wow
                            Mamba Mentality

                            Comment


                            • Why exactly do people think we are too good to be in the lottery? We've won against the Knicks who shot horribly and the King's who were absolutely smoking us in the first quarter. We've had close games, but unable to finish. I think we are a bottom 7 team this year.

                              We traded away a lot of assets to win the championship, which is awesome. Then we lost 4 key players of that championship to free agency. It's understandable that this team would take a step back.

                              Watch the team for what it is, and just enjoy the basketball. They're playing hard but we just don't have the depth we used to have, and I don't call that tanking. I call that an off year.

                              With the new draft odds we can be in striking distance of a top three pick. Add a top prospect and do okay in free agency and we could be a 4-5 seed next year, building towards a championship.

                              Comment


                              • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

                                Some of us were even thinking about tanking as early as game 1.
                                Our roster just isn't that good.
                                We need a superstar from the 2021 draft.
                                Gigantic f***ing eye-roll.

                                You were thinking about tanking throughout most of the 2019 playoffs. Even an obnoxious, broken clock can be right twice a day.

                                Now's your time to shine, troll. Have at 'er.

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