Game #9 Toronto Raptors vs Golden State Warriors - Jan 10th - 830pm EST

[LJ2]

Thomas isn't playing because we have too many guards. And I totally agree about Norm. He'll have a 25pt game eventually but it's too little, too late. The guy is too inconsistent, and garbage when he can't produce. Trade him for a center. Move Thomas back in the rotation.

The problem with Boucher is that he'd foul out by the second quarter. We need to keep him for the end of the game.. which is the most important part of the game.

See, I think they need to play Boucher to get him to learn to not foul out of the game. He doesn't develop unless he's put in those situations.

He's by far the best big we have right now and his game is perfect for what the Raps need. Just needs to get better, stronger etc.

[LJ2]

well that's why they call it Win Now move.

Would you rather make trades for role players or stars? Trading for stars will gut your roster and when they walk as was the case with Kawhi, you're set back with an empty cupboard of assets and a long timeline before returning to contention.

[The Great One]

Big market team reffing, hard core. Too bad, good effort. Those of you talking about tanking after every loss, super lame fans.

I want them to compete for championships and contend every year. How do you do that? you tank. You need superstars to win in this league. This team right now is stuck in no man's land. Yes, they're good enough to make the playoffs as the 7th-8th seed because of Lowry but you and I know that if they make the playoffs as the 7th-8th seed you know that they're going to just get swept in the 1st round.

What needs to happen? they need to trade Lowry.

[planetmars]

Green is a pure scorer like a Tracy McGrady. He's the best player in this draft.

But back to the Raptors, if they want to win games, they need to staple Powell to the bench. They're losing too many possessions because of his dumb play.

Boucher imo should start and my 3 guys off the bench would be Thomas, Flynn and Stanley. Thomas should be getting 20 mins a game. I don'd understand why he's not in the rotation anymore. He's their best bench player imo. As for Stanley, he's the best backup SF/PF they have.

Thomas isn't playing because we have too many guards. And I totally agree about Norm. He'll have a 25pt game eventually but it's too little, too late. The guy is too inconsistent, and garbage when he can't produce. Trade him for a center. Move Thomas back in the rotation.

The problem with Boucher is that he'd foul out by the second quarter. We need to keep him for the end of the game.. which is the most important part of the game.

[planetmars]

Not sure I follow, PM. Are you saying that Kyle Lowry is holding back this team (specifically Fred) from winning more games? Or the roster imbalance? I'll bite.

So... let's say we trade Lowry/Norm/Len to OKC for Horford/Muscala/Justin Jackson.

What is the playoff ceiling of this team?

FVV/Flynn
TD./Thomas
OG/Jackson/Yuta
Siakam/Muscala
Horford/Boucher/Baynes

I'm saying that trading Kyle alone won't get us a top 5 pick.. we will still be too good with Pascal/Fred (we saw that against the Kangz). Plus when we trade Kyle it will be to a competitor.. not a team like OKC that wants assets not veterans that can help them win.. that's counterintuitive for them. It will be to a team like LAC/Philly/Dallas/Denver/etc.. meaning we will get contracts back.. essentially mid-level type of contracts. We'll get depth/bench pieces.. type of pieces we got for Gay that got us to 48 wins.

We need to trade Kyle for fungible players AND lose one of Pascal/Fred to become a bottom 5 team. I think both need to happen.

[The Great One]

Cunningham looks like a good player for sure.. but he's a fantasy. No way the Raptors are getting a #1 pick. Have you seen the Wizards, Pistons or Timberwolves play? That's like thinking Kevin Durant will be a Raptor.

I don't like Green from what I've seen online.

Mobley is a toothpick. Isn't Boucher just as good?

Kuminga feels a bit robotic to me, but he could be good I guess. Would need to see more and against better competition.

We should be looking at guys in the 10-20 range. That's where we will be picking IMO.

Green is a pure scorer like a Tracy McGrady. He's the best player in this draft.

But back to the Raptors, if they want to win games, they need to staple Powell to the bench. They're losing too many possessions because of his dumb play.

Boucher imo should start and my 3 guys off the bench would be Thomas, Flynn and Stanley. Thomas should be getting 20 mins a game. I don'd understand why he's not in the rotation anymore. He's their best bench player imo. As for Stanley, he's the best backup SF/PF they have.

[golden]

I know how tanking works.

No.. you trade away Lowry and Fred gets more usage, and we gel like we did against Sacramento. There is a reason why Fred has a pretty awesome record without Kyle. We are flawed because of our short backcourt and no decent center. Trading Lowry would be our Rudy Gay trade. We'll have to get contracts back and those contracts will help fill in the gaps.

We'll just become playoff fodder. This team is too good to tank. The only way to truly be bad is if we lose Lowry and one of Pascal/Fred get hurt for the rest of the season.

We are too good to be the Wizards/Pistons/Timberwolves/Kings/Grizzlies of the league, even without Lowry.

Not sure I follow, PM. Are you saying that Kyle Lowry is holding back this team (specifically Fred) from winning more games? Or the roster imbalance? I'll bite.

So... let's say we trade Lowry/Norm/Len to OKC for Horford/Muscala/Justin Jackson.

What is the playoff ceiling of this team?

FVV/Flynn
TD./Thomas
OG/Jackson/Yuta
Siakam/Muscala
Horford/Boucher/Baynes

[planetmars]

So lottery picks have a bunch of busts but outside of lottery that's where we find our stud? Seriously doubt it.

You can get a stud either way.. you may have a better chance inside the lottery.. but imagine if you don't? Wouldn't the season be completely lost? At least in a winning season you give fans something to cheer for. I'd rather cheer for a win than a loss.

I'm just saying that our guys can draft pretty good players outside the lottery.. they have a track record for it. But when you have a lottery pick you better nail it. So if you are looking to replenish our cupboards with good players we can do that outside the lottery. If you are looking for more tradeable assets like we used on Kawhi/Ibaka/Gasol.. we can do that outside the lottery.

Now if you want a Lebron/Duncan/Shaq/MJ/Hakeem type of player.. tank-tank-tank. I just don't see one this draft.

[MixxAOR]

Yup, as I've said before, this was always going to be the outcome of going for that championship. No regrets, but unless you want to end up with short, one or two season championship windows you have to draft the center pieces. Unless of course the day comes when the big name free agents come to Toronto willingly.

well that's why they call it Win Now move.

[LJ2]

We also gave up a late 1st round pick in the Kawhi trade. Spurs selected Keldon Johnson, who their fans are hailing as the second coming.

The All-Star Keldon Johnson reminds people of - Pounding The Rock

And then there was the 1st round pick to dump DeMarre Carroll's salary to the Nets. And a couple 2nd rounders for the PJ Tucker rental.

The asset cupboard was definitely depleted by the time we won the chip.

Yup, as I've said before, this was always going to be the outcome of going for that championship. No regrets, but unless you want to end up with short, one or two season championship windows you have to draft the center pieces. Unless of course the day comes when the big name free agents come to Toronto willingly.

[MixxAOR]

Yes, we need to replenish the cupboards but we have all our picks. So we can, it'll just take a couple of years.

And you don't need a lottery pick. We basically draft top 14 players without having a top 14 pick anyway. So isn't that really the same thing?

So lottery picks have a bunch of busts but outside of lottery that's where we find our stud? Seriously doubt it.

[golden]

I hope you guys remember how much assets went the other way when we made our trades.

Demar (lottery pick) + Poeltl(lottery pick) for Kawhi and Green
Ross (lottery pick) for Ibaka
JV(lottery pick) + Delon (late first rounder) for Marc Gasol

All that gone now

We also gave up a late 1st round pick in the Kawhi trade. Spurs selected Keldon Johnson, who their fans are hailing as the second coming.

The All-Star Keldon Johnson reminds people of - Pounding The Rock

And then there was the 1st round pick to dump DeMarre Carroll's salary to the Nets. And a couple 2nd rounders for the PJ Tucker rental.

The asset cupboard was definitely depleted by the time we won the chip.

[planetmars]

We have 2nd worst record in the league at the moment

It's only 9 games into the season.. and we are only 4.5 games back of 1st. 2.5 games of 8th. Miami got to the finals as the 5th seed last season.

[planetmars]

I hope you guys remember how much assets went the other way when we made our trades.

Demar (lottery pick) + Poeltl(lottery pick) for Kawhi and Green
Ross (lottery pick) for Ibaka
JV(lottery pick) + Delon (late first rounder) for Marc Gasol

All that gone now

Yes, we need to replenish the cupboards but we have all our picks. So we can, it'll just take a couple of years.

And you don't need a lottery pick. We basically draft top 14 players without having a top 14 pick anyway. So isn't that really the same thing?

[MixxAOR]

We have 2nd worst record in the league at the moment