Game # 10 Raps at Blazers Monday January 11th 10pm on Sportsnet

[chris]

Ok but you risk him leaving in free agency

i'm aware. it's not a great situation. but it's preferable (in my opinion) to taking on a like a horford-type deal or something just to get marginal pick. that totally limits our options going forward.

it makes perfect sense if you're tearing down everything to the skids and shedding siakam/FVV/OG at the same time to acquire shitloads of other picks, and planning to suck for the forseeable future. otherwise it's just short-sighted.

now if the contract attached to the pick is also expiring that's another matter. but i don't believe that's what golden is referring to, otherwise he'd call it an expiring contract rather than a bad contract.

[golden]

unless that pick is something like top-three, i hate this idea. it only makes sense if you're doing an OKC/hinkie style complete tear-down and assembling a war-chest of assets, but we're not in that boat.

FVV, siakam, OG, and boucher are all good players on fair contracts. we're not that far off (from getting back to last year's level at least. true title contender status is another matter). our problem is we have no depth. taking on bad contracts for a middling pick will impede us from adding around the margins.

if we trade lowry for shit contracts we should go whole-hog and get rid of everybody. build around paul watson and malachi flynn and complete the fantasy of half the board.

Lowry's a free agent. You're just delaying your own "whole-hog get rid of everybody" scenario for just a few months, if he leaves for nothing anyway.

[chris]

Lowry's a free agent. You're just delaying your own "whole-hog get rid of everybody" scenario for just a few months, if he leaves for nothing anyway.

i don't understand your point. if you just let lowry expire you maintain flexibility to add depth to the pascal/FVV/OG/boucher core which is what i believe is preventing us from being back to about the team we were last year.

if you take on shitty contracts you forfeit the ability to add that depth.

unless you're arguing to fully tear everything down, then i agree it makes perfect sense. you only value rookie or lu dort-like contracts anyhow so i'm guessing that's where you're at. i'm just not there yet.

[golden]

i'm aware. it's not a great situation. but it's preferable (in my opinion) to taking on a like a horford-type deal or something just to get marginal pick. that totally limits our options going forward.

it makes perfect sense if you're tearing down everything to the skids and shedding siakam/FVV/OG at the same time to acquire shitloads of other picks, and planning to suck for the forseeable future. otherwise it's just short-sighted.

now if the contract attached to the pick is also expiring that's another matter. but i don't believe that's what golden is referring to, otherwise he'd call it an expiring contract rather than a bad contract.

A "bad contract" is often temporary. Everybody thought Chris Paul had the worst contract in the NBA, but OKC extracted great value for him, both incoming and outgoing. I mean, let's never forget that Andrea Bargnani helped us get Kawhi. Brooklyn Nets rebuilt their whole team with no own picks for years, simply by taking on bad contracts.

[golden]

i don't understand your point. if you just let lowry expire you maintain flexibility to add depth to the pascal/FVV/OG/boucher core which is what i believe is preventing us from being back to about the team we were last year.

if you take on shitty contracts you forfeit the ability to add that depth.

unless you're arguing to fully tear everything down, then i agree it makes perfect sense. you only value rookie or lu dort-like contracts anyhow so i'm guessing that's where you're at. i'm just not there yet.

Flexibility to do what? Sign top tier free agents? That's not happening in Toronto. We don't need anymore evidence to confirm that. Trades and internal development have been what has worked for us.

[MixxAOR]

Flexibility to do what? Sign top tier free agents? That's not happening in Toronto. We don't need anymore evidence to confirm that. Trades and internal development have been what has worked for us.

Not top tier but we can still sign good role players.

[chris]

A "bad contract" is often temporary. Everybody thought Chris Paul had the worst contract in the NBA, but OKC extracted great value for him, both incoming and outgoing. I mean, let's never forget that Andrea Bargnani helped us get Kawhi. Brooklyn Nets rebuilt their whole team with no own picks for years, simply by taking on bad contracts.

the nets literally had no other options. all their players sucked and boston owned all of their draft capitol for 6 years. the only way for them to re-stock talent was to take on bad contracts to acquire picks.

i don't think it's a comparable situation because i think we have enough talent in the core to be a pretty good team. i just think we need to add depth around the margins. we're absolutely cratering in the minutes we're playing baynes/len/stanley/watanabe et al.

is your argument that we can add that depth via a middling pick for lowry plus our own? maybe, but those guys will likely take a few years to develop (and nurse won't play them right away anyhow), so it doesn't jive with our group's timeline.

i agree "bad contract" is temporary and subjective. i suppose you'd have to give me specific examples for me to have a further opinion on it. but when i read "bad contract" it connotes horford, porter a few years ago, batum prior to getting stretched, etc. (i'm sure you'd argue OG next season, lol. incidentally i think that contract only becomes bad if we suck. if he maintains his play and we continue to be a winning franchise then league-wide perception will keep the value up. and i don't think OG's the one holding us back from being good).

[chris]

Flexibility to do what? Sign top tier free agents? That's not happening in Toronto. We don't need anymore evidence to confirm that. Trades and internal development have been what has worked for us.

no. sign depth. flexibility to add what we lost in serge basically, which was a mis-step by the FO imo. basically what mixx is saying

[The Great One]

But Boston, Milwaukee and the Sixers maybe could/will be better in the post season this year. The pack is separating and we're no longer there. I wonder where we'd be if we mixed and matched Serge and Boucher instead of Len/Baynes and Boucher. Perhaps a bit better but still not good enough?

Lat year's team was a contending team. This year's team is flat out garbage.

[DogeLover1234]

We were the 2nd seed in the East last season. How is one season which hasn't even played out fully and potentially in the 7-11 range mean we are treadmilling? We'd have to be here for multiple years to apply that title.

I'm optimistic because our core are all playing well. We add a good piece through the draft and maybe another through free agency and we are right back there.

Yeah theres a lot more context required here lol. Its been 10 games and weve already seen a lot of improvement. Beyond that, some of teams in that 7-11 range move up the next year, some move down and a couple stay there. Like Miami, LAC, Denver immediately come to mind as teams that went from borderline playoff teams to contenders in one or two offseasons.

We have all our picks, locked up good talent longterm on what should be at least decent contracts and still have avenues to capspace. We’ve left open paths to get high level talent through the draft, free agency and trades, while remaining competitive short term - thats a lot better than most teams who go all in for a championship.

[golden]

no. sign depth. flexibility to add what we lost in serge basically, which was a mis-step by the FO imo. basically what mixx is saying

Our core lacks elite half-court shot-creation when the games get tight. OG/FVV/Siakam don't have that in their bag yet. OG will never have that. FVV might get a step-back once in a blue moon. Pascal is our best hope, but his handles are still embryonic. Elite shot-creators are usually franchise type players, not depth role players.

[chris]

Our core lacks elite half-court shot-creation when the games get tight. OG/FVV/Siakam don't have that in their bag yet. OG will never have that. FVV might get a step-back once in a blue moon. Pascal is our best hope, but his handles are still embryonic. Elite shot-creators are usually franchise type players, not depth role players.

i agree with all of this. (although you constantly shit on pascal's handle and i think it's pretty damn good for his position... how many bigs in the league do you think are better? i would say KD and simmons. tatum and lebron if you want to call them "bigs". draymond and adebayo also pretty good but they don't deal with the defensive pressure pascal does).

handles aside, this all comes down to how you think it's best to acquire that number one option. tear it down OKC/hinkie style and get rid of this core, or build from "the middle". which to me is getting back into the thick of it in the east (in the miami/boston range), and maintaining flexibility for the next big opportunity.

i'm for the latter. i was enthusiastically for the former during the BC era and when masai took over. but i think many teams have successfully built contenders over the years without ever bottoming out, including us. i'd add boston, houston, utah, miami, and others to that list as well.

[The Great One]

Yep. Siakam's ball handling for a PF is actually elite. OG's ball handling for a SF on the other hand is way below average. Dude dribbles the ball as high as his shoulder. They shouldn't be running any plays for him offensively other than a spot up 3.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Sure pascals handles are exceptional for pf but not for a pf thats considered a no1 option and will be the guy taking potential game winners in iso’s. In those situations hes actually frightening to watch. He seems to give one away in the final 2 minutes of a close game on a regular.

and ya OG I love him as much as the next guy but hes totally awkward dribbling. Hes basically an empty space in those final plays unless hes left open even then its a crapshoot despite recent success

[G__Deane]

Lowry is expiring. He's free agent this summer. what team is giving lottery pick? I dont even think that playoff teams will trade for him now because they can wait for free agency to make their pitch.

If you guys think Lowry is this loyal guy who wants to retire with Raptors I think you mistaking him for Demar

100% Kyle's ego is as big as any player in the NBA and he counts cash above all as an indication of his value. Dude could go to Chrysler as a union rep in retirement and not skip a beat ....