Game #11 Charlotte Hornets @ Toronto Raptors 7:30 pm. TSN

[MixxAOR]

Well main point is he was still a serviceable player last season and thats what many of us expected when he was signed. Set hard screens, play some defense, hit some shots, not get played off the floor.

Possibly his injuries then. He is injury prone and he's old. Perhaps it finally caught up to him. Maybe roster construction doesn't work with him.

[LJ2]

I don't think thats true. Baynes was actually decent just last season. Started and averaged 12 points, shot 47% and 36% from 3. He wasn't a bad free agent to get considering Raptors waited on Ibaka and Gasol, but his play has fallen off a cliff this season.

If Baynes was that good wouldn't either Boston or Phoenix have retained his services? Nobody is holding onto him for too long and he's basically lost the starting spot with a team in desperate need for a big. I made this point earlier in the season, but Toronto unlike a lot of other teams throw a lot of different looks on defense. I doubt that was the case in Phoenix last season.

[MixxAOR]

If Baynes was that good wouldn't either Boston or Phoenix have retained his services? Nobody is holding onto him for too long and he's basically lost the starting spot with a team in desperate need for a big. I made this point earlier in the season, but Toronto unlike a lot of other teams throw a lot of different looks on defense. I doubt that was the case in Phoenix last season.

I mean Phoenix didn't have great record lol and when he didn't play in the bubble Suns went undefeated

[golden]

The question is why is the decision-making and execution so bad in the 4th? So, last night, I think early on we saw the limitations of that Stanimal/Yuta combo in the second stint - the lack of offense puts a lot of pressure on Lowry and Powell and it can become a problem fast. Once they had the poor start to the quarter the team panicked and it started to snowball.

It also looks to me as though they are really insistent that certain things happen down the stretch even if it doesn't make sense. Last night the tempo slowed to a crawl (Lowry especially was guilty of taking way too long to initiate the offense) and they were trying to force play through Fred and Pascal even though the best option was a Boucher/Lowry two-man game. There were multiple offensive possessions where Boucher was open against the zone at the foul line or deeper and they looked him off settling for contested threes instead.

Lots of people are looking at the non-Lowry minutes as the problem but Lowry played almost the entire fourth quarter and they scored 12 points and did everything in their power to give the game away. We've got too many guys playing with agendas (either self or team imposed) and it's affecting the on-court performance.

It looked like Charlotte went to some zone in the 4th quarter, which threw off our offense. Anybody else see that? Also, Lowry playing the whole 4th quarter was probably one of the reasons why we faded down the stretch and almost coughed up the game.

Nurse needs to get that bench rotation buttoned down and stop mixing and matching different guys with 5 minute auditions and quicker hooks.

I would not be surprised to see TD and Matt Thomas leave and blow-up big on some other team.

[planetmars]

It looked like Charlotte went to some zone in the 4th quarter, which threw off our offense. Anybody else see that? Also, Lowry playing the whole 4th quarter was probably one of the reasons why we faded down the stretch and almost coughed up the game.

Nurse needs to get that bench rotation buttoned down and stop mixing and matching different guys with 5 minute auditions and quicker hooks.

I would not be surprised to see TD and Matt Thomas leave and blow-up big on some other team.

Masai/Bobby have to trade Norm to free up time for those two. And we haven't even seen McCaw yet. You know he's getting playing time over those two as well.

But yeah.. bringing in the starting unit around the 9min mark screamed desperation. It should have put the nail in the coffin but did the opposite. Playing zone against the Raptors should be an automatic strategy going forward for most teams. We were so bad against it last night.

If it wasn't for all those offensive rebound opportunities, and Boucher playing big down the stretch.. it would have been another loss. You know Charlotte's coming up with the zone again next game.

[inthepaint]

Wish Masai was a better evaluator of external free agents.. I love the guy but he's had a pretty crappy record in that one area.

Who's the best free agent this team ever picked up? Cory Joseph? Tyler Hansborough? Bismack Biyombo?

Baynes, Len and Bembry are useless. Last year it was Stanimal and RHJ. He's also brought in Scola, Monroe, Lin, Carroll, Sullinger.

The front office are great evaluators of prospects. They've hit so many homeruns. And we know their track records for trades. But they suck so bad at bringing in free agents.


I'm kind of scared of having cap space next season.. Hope we can fill it up with a trade and just bypass free agency.

Getting baynes was a hail mary. They didn't get him because they carefully evaluated/mis-evaluated him and saw something that other teams didn't. It was a "take what you you can get" situation after we let our 2 centres go to LA. He was pretty much the only passable C out there that was willing to be stop-gap on a low $, 1-year deal on a non-contending team. Same for Len.

The front office main goal now is to save cap space for next season over hell and high water, despite the historical record in free agency you just mentioned, and the 2021 FA class being dry. It was always a dry class because all the good free agents were already in contending teams, getting max deals, in the markets they wanted, with no incentive to go anywhere else.

And yet because this year has been circled since ~2017 as the "cap space year", they're sticking to this like a Nick Nurse to a Pat McCaw. So that's gonna get you Lens and Baynesses. We let go of tradable assets, and put a big red line in terms of the $ and term of contracts we could allow ourselves to bring in last offseason, via trade or FA, and now we're seeing the result. Regardless if you see the Hail Mary for Giannis being worth it or not, there's cost to that, which is now manifesting itself on the court.

[planetmars]

Getting baynes was a hail mary. They didn't get him because they carefully evaluated/mis-evaluated him and saw something that other teams didn't. It was a "take what you you can get" situation after we let our 2 centres go to LA. He was pretty much the only passable C out there that was willing to be stop-gap on a low $, 1-year deal on a non-contending team. Same for Len.

The front office main goal now is to save cap space for next season over hell and high water, despite the historical record in free agency you just mentioned, and the 2021 FA class being dry. It was always a dry class because all the good free agents were already in contending teams, getting max deals, in the markets they wanted, with no incentive to go anywhere else.

And yet because this year has been circled since ~2017 as the "cap space year", they're sticking to this like a Nick Nurse to a Pat McCaw. So that's gonna get you Lens and Baynesses. We let go of tradable assets, and put a big red line in terms of the $ and term of contracts we could allow ourselves to bring in last offseason, via trade or FA, and now we're seeing the result. Regardless if you see the Hail Mary for Giannis being worth it or not, there's cost to that, which is now manifesting itself on the court.

All true.. but just go back to the time Masai got here to now.. who's the best free agent we ever got? And we've had mid-level contracts to offer. I think it was Biyombo who was a 1 year wonder for us.

We just suck at bringing in free agents as an organization. Unless we are bringing our own guys back. But when we're bringing in someone new.. anyone new.. they usually suck.

[A.I]

All true.. but just go back to the time Masai got here to now.. who's the best free agent we ever got? And we've had mid-level contracts to offer. I think it was Biyombo who was a 1 year wonder for us.

We just suck at bringing in free agents as an organization. Unless we are bringing our own guys back. But when we're bringing in someone new.. anyone new.. they usually suck.

Well we were stuck with the core of Lowry, Derozan and JV for a long time, so not much cap space to go around for a free agent who can move the needle. Many of the free agents we signed were just serviceable players to support the main core, no one to play a significant role. Carroll came off a good season in Atlanta, I believe he got injured in Toronto and played poorly since. Scola was 35 when he signed here, can't expect much outside of veteran experience. Lou Williams played well and won Sixth man of the Year here. Biyombo played well here and got a big contract elsewhere.

[planetmars]

Well we were stuck with the core of Lowry, Derozan and JV for a long time, so not much cap space to go around for a free agent who can move the needle. Many of the free agents we signed were just serviceable players to support the main core, no one to play a significant role. Carroll came off a good season in Atlanta, I believe he got injured in Toronto and played poorly since. Scola was 35 when he signed here, can't expect much outside of veteran experience. Lou Williams played well and won Sixth man of the Year here. Biyombo played well here and got a big contract elsewhere.

I don't think we pick very good serviceable role players. Scola was pretty bad. Carroll was the big one because we used cap on him, and that was a backfire.. but we'd had some really bad players like Lin, McCaw, Johnson, Baynes, Monroe. Even DJ Augustin was a dud as a Raptor, and only turned his career around once he left.

Lou was a trade. We got him for Salmons who we also traded for.

We do great in trades. We suck in free agency.

[MixxAOR]

I don't think we pick very good serviceable role players. Scola was pretty bad. Carroll was the big one because we used cap on him, and that was a backfire.. but we'd had some really bad players like Lin, McCaw, Johnson, Baynes, Monroe. Even DJ Augustin was a dud as a Raptor, and only turned his career around once he left.

Lou was a trade. We got him for Salmons who we also traded for.

We do great in trades. We suck in free agency.

Players don't want to come here. Nothing new

[A.I]

I don't think we pick very good serviceable role players. Scola was pretty bad. Carroll was the big one because we used cap on him, and that was a backfire.. but we'd had some really bad players like Lin, McCaw, Johnson, Baynes, Monroe. Even DJ Augustin was a dud as a Raptor, and only turned his career around once he left.

Lou was a trade. We got him for Salmons who we also traded for.

We do great in trades. We suck in free agency.

Forgot Lou was a trade. With DJ Augustin, he played poorly the season before with the Pacers too, wasn't just a Raptors thing. He went to the Bulls, got more minutes and started playing better.

Well my point being we were pretty limited in who we could get in free agency because of not having cap space. A lot of mediocre players who played mediocre or worse. Biyombo is probably the only one that played well on occasion and it came as a surprise.

[LJ2]

Thinking about these former players just reminded me of Landry Fields' wife....sooo hot.

[inthepaint]

All true.. but just go back to the time Masai got here to now.. who's the best free agent we ever got? And we've had mid-level contracts to offer. I think it was Biyombo who was a 1 year wonder for us.

We just suck at bringing in free agents as an organization. Unless we are bringing our own guys back. But when we're bringing in someone new.. anyone new.. they usually suck.

Players don't want to come here. Nothing new

All correct. And yet with that fact clear as day (heck we're the only team in history that had a finals MVP leave in free agency immediately after a title), this was our post-championship strategy: Don't sign anyone that eat into 2021 cap space. Since we're so good at attracting free agents, we're going to pry the league MVP (Giannis) OUT of his current team, which happens to be able to pay him more, and has a better record than us.

Hard swing, hard miss. Now we gotta own it, accept the fallout of the miss, and hopefully adjust our sails so we re-focus on what we do best: Draft and trade.

I fear the stubbornness though. 2021 is circled hard on their calendar. My worry is that Lowry will walk in free agency (as the 5th rotation champion leaving with nothing in return), so that for 2021 we can continue to "save cap space" (with which we've never done anything meaningful with like you guys pointed out).

Lowry is looking to be the best free agent in 2021 though, so they'll probably re-sign him and celebrate that we at least managed to retain our own FAs, like with Fred. Ironically though, doing that might get us stuck to that 7-11 zone, away from contention, but also away from the better draft positions.

[slaw]

It looked like Charlotte went to some zone in the 4th quarter, which threw off our offense. Anybody else see that? Also, Lowry playing the whole 4th quarter was probably one of the reasons why we faded down the stretch and almost coughed up the game.

Nurse needs to get that bench rotation buttoned down and stop mixing and matching different guys with 5 minute auditions and quicker hooks.

I would not be surprised to see TD and Matt Thomas leave and blow-up big on some other team.

Yeah, they went zone but Hornets had been mixing defenses all night to not much effect until the fourth when everything fell apart. The three point shooting obviously fell off but it was more than that.

The guard position right now is a mile wide and an inch deep. It's Lowry/FVV/Powell and maybe a few minutes for one other. But Flynn and TD can't get on the floor and stay there while Thomas, along with Bembry, seems to be out of the mix entirely. So management built a guard-heavy roster (didn't even mention McCaw or Watson) of 8-9 guys and only 3 of them are regularly playing. Meanwhile, the lack of forward depth means they have Watanabe/Johnson playing meaningful minutes which is great for those guys but severely limits the team's growth.

Something has to give.

[golden]

Yeah, they went zone but Hornets had been mixing defenses all night to not much effect until the fourth when everything fell apart. The three point shooting obviously fell off but it was more than that.

The guard position right now is a mile wide and an inch deep. It's Lowry/FVV/Powell and maybe a few minutes for one other. But Flynn and TD can't get on the floor and stay there while Thomas, along with Bembry, seems to be out of the mix entirely. So management built a guard-heavy roster (didn't even mention McCaw or Watson) of 8-9 guys and only 3 of them are regularly playing. Meanwhile, the lack of forward depth means they have Watanabe/Johnson playing meaningful minutes which is great for those guys but severely limits the team's growth.

Something has to give.

TD, Thomas & Boucher are clearly our 3 most talented bench players.

Those 3 + at least one of Lowry or Pascal should be the core bench mob.... hell or high water. Powell, Stanley, Yuta, Flynn, Bembry, McCaw & Watson should be battling it out for the last spot, depending on need, chemistry & consistency. FVV should not be leading a bench mob without Lowry or Pascal.

I would still keep Baynes or Len as the starting C, but with a quick sub to Boucher after 5-6 minutes at the start of the game/half, to keep Boucher in a bench & closer role. We could sprinkle a few Pascal/OG small-ball center vs. bench units, plus Len, so that Boucher doesn't have to play 36-38 minutes every single game.

Powell and TD are clearly redundant, so a Powell trade should be all but inevitable. Not sure why Watson isn't getting a shot, because his size alone could help him break into a lineup that's desperately in need of it.