Game #12 Charlotte Hornets(6-7) @ Toronto Raptors(3-8) 7:30pm TSN

[JawsGT]

The only reason i can see for starting baynes is to give him the chance to turn it around. Hes getting 5 min or so every game, at the start to try and find a groove. If he doesnt, he gets yanked, never to return. It would be a bonus if baynes started to play better and was able to offer some positives. We do need a reliable bigger body. So Nurse is gonna give him that shot every game. I just wish he'd do it at some other point than the start. Through him out there in the second Q or something.

[G__Deane]

When you read the entire synopsis of this game on other sites and Siakam isn't even mentioned once, it's not good right?

[planetmars]

Was only partially annoyed in that game unlike some of the others this season. It was close, and they almost lost, and again they went through a dry spell offensively. But Norm had his first good game of the season (let's trade him now!). Boucher continues to be great. Felt like OG was really good which was great. Fred was 3 boards away from a triple double. A little more efficiency from 3pt land would have been nice, but really can't complain too much about his game. I thought Stanley showed something defensively. Good defense at the end of the game on closing out on Rozier.

But we can't have a perfect game. Pascal went back to early season Pascal. Lowry was a -9. Mostly because of how the 3rd quarter ended. What was up with Norm taking a quick shot with like 5 seconds left on the clock? That was a 5-6 point swing.. and that swing almost lost us this game. Still too many dumb fouls. We relied too much on the 3 point shot.. 21 makes but 49 takes. And was only a 3 point game. Need to use the paint more. I like Biyombo, but he's not that great.

Flynn was good and bad. He was more aggressive with his shot and took 7 of them (only 2-7), but defensively I think he slipped up too many times. He didn't rotate fast enough or lost his man on a switch. But he's young.

4-8 is still a crappy record, but we're tied for 8th place (with Charlotte) in losses now. Playoffs here we come!

[Rudy Bargnani]

Only half a game back of miami

Yea Miami should probably just tank. They misread things saving cap space for next year and let Jae Crowder walk for nothing. Now they have an older expiring point guard in Dragic who can just walk for nothing.

Sarcasm font.

[JawsGT]

Well I'm pretty close to giving up on these guys. The next 6 games should determine how i feel. 2 vs pacers and heat, plus mavs and bucks. We are going to have to play alot better just to go 3-3. They dont, and i will be ready to support a tear down. We lack a decent C, which is glaring, but I just cant attribute the difference between this season and last to the loss of Gasol and Ibaka. There has to be more to it. I'm usually in favour of playing above the cap and am satisfied with a good team making the playoffs, and trying to work trades to improve. But pascal just doesnt seem like the same player, OG has shown no improvement offensively, fred is doing well but cant carry a team. I dont know, we have some really good 3rd, 4th and 5th options, 6th man types but we are lacking the alphas.

[Jclaw]

At some point during last night's game we ran a lineup of fred, malchi, og, boucher and one other person (forget who but it wasn't pascal). That gave a little glimpse into our future Raptors and overall they looked pretty good. Anyone know where I can find a stat for five man lineups by game? Crazy small sample size but it would be neat to see

[planetmars]

At some point during last night's game we ran a lineup of fred, malchi, og, boucher and one other person (forget who but it wasn't pascal). That gave a little glimpse into our future Raptors and overall they looked pretty good. Anyone know where I can find a stat for five man lineups by game? Crazy small sample size but it would be neat to see

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/ad...01%2F17%2F2021


nba.com/stats.. then go team->lineup. Filter on Raptors, and games from yesterday. Can toggle from Regular/Advanced and other types of stats. That link there is for advanced stats which includes net rating.

[slaw]

Well I'm pretty close to giving up on these guys. The next 6 games should determine how i feel. 2 vs pacers and heat, plus mavs and bucks. We are going to have to play alot better just to go 3-3. They dont, and i will be ready to support a tear down. We lack a decent C, which is glaring, but I just cant attribute the difference between this season and last to the loss of Gasol and Ibaka. There has to be more to it. I'm usually in favour of playing above the cap and am satisfied with a good team making the playoffs, and trying to work trades to improve. But pascal just doesnt seem like the same player, OG has shown no improvement offensively, fred is doing well but cant carry a team. I dont know, we have some really good 3rd, 4th and 5th options, 6th man types but we are lacking the alphas.

Had a lot of guys over perform last year. This year key guys like Pascal and Norm are underperforming. The main guys are also very inconsistent. Last year they also had a very productive, useful bench with Serge, Norm, RHJ, Davis, and Boucher (even McCaw at times). This year you have Boucher.

Can argue about who is to blame and why but that’s why Raps are 4-8.

[Jclaw]

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/ad...01%2F17%2F2021


nba.com/stats.. then go team->lineup. Filter on Raptors, and games from yesterday. Can toggle from Regular/Advanced and other types of stats. That link there is for advanced stats which includes net rating.

Thanks. FWIW they were one of the better net rating lineups of the game. Norm was the 5th player

[JawsGT]

Had a lot of guys over perform last year. This year key guys like Pascal and Norm are underperforming. The main guys are also very inconsistent. Last year they also had a very productive, useful bench with Serge, Norm, RHJ, Davis, and Boucher (even McCaw at times). This year you have Boucher.

Can argue about who is to blame and why but that’s why Raps are 4-8.

Im not sure i agree with over perform. Maybe youre right but they had the better part of a full season where they played very well. That seems like too large a sample size for me to suggest they over performed. Its possible Im underestimating the need for this team, as constructed, to have a good center, or two. But it seems to me that Boucher is currently playing better than Ibaka probably ever has for this team. That leaves Gasol's absence as the most logical explanation, and yet, its doesnt seem logical at all.

Clearly we need more, and getting that guy, like a beal for example, could very well gut the team of enough talent that we really wouldnt get ahead at all, at least this season. I dont know, but we're going to have to play alot better over the next 6 games to convince me we should stay the course.

[golden]

I've been saying this for while now, they gotta stop wasting time with baynes (and Len). They keep starting him, the team digs a hole, and then 6 minutes in they take him out for the rest of the game so we can start chasing. What's the point? Baynes is -40 this season so far. I don't buy the "matchup" argument to start baynes. There's no greater damage an opposing bulky C can do to boucher than the overall pounding we take on both ends of the floor when baynes is in. Start your 5 best players already.

Also, if the leash size for Flynn and Thomas was the same we should be seeing some Thomas next game.

There are 3 good reasons for not starting Boucher: (1) protect him from getting quick fouls early & (2) he won’t have the same usage/role when he plays with the starters... he’s not taking shots away from Lowry/FVV/Pascal & (3) he brings energy off the bench to extend the lead or turnaround the game.

Last night, Baynes was -10, but it was hard to fault him for the slow start. The other starters were straight up bricking open 3s. Defense wasn’t the problem.

[slaw]

Im not sure i agree with over perform. Maybe youre right but they had the better part of a full season where they played very well. That seems like too large a sample size for me to suggest they over performed. Its possible Im underestimating the need for this team, as constructed, to have a good center, or two. But it seems to me that Boucher is currently playing better than Ibaka probably ever has for this team. That leaves Gasol's absence as the most logical explanation, and yet, its doesnt seem logical at all.

Clearly we need more, and getting that guy, like a beal for example, could very well gut the team of enough talent that we really wouldnt get ahead at all, at least this season. I dont know, but we're going to have to play alot better over the next 6 games to convince me we should stay the course.

No, you are right that it is more than just Gasol. Here's what happens though. You lose Gasol and Ibaka and Boucher steps up to take Ibaka's spot but who has taken Gasol's? And, also, who has taken Boucher's old spot? No one. In fact, it's even worse in that the spots have been filled by guys who aren't only not bringing anything to the table but actually taking things off the table. And you can say center is not a big deal but having negative players out there puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the guys night in, night out.

And go down the list. Who has taken RHJ's role? No one. Who has filled Davis 15-20 MPG from last year? No one. People forget that Davis won them a few games last year and RHJ was a godsend when injuries hit.

An even if overperform was wrong, then all of their top guys have definitely underperformed from last season. Norm is playing worse. Pascal is playing worse. Kyle, OG and FVV have all been inconsistent.

It's all left them with no margin for error and it's showing up with all the uncharacteristic mental mistakes, poor decision-making, panicking, etc. that we've seen.

.

[inthepaint]

There are 3 good reasons for not starting Boucher: (1) protect him from getting quick fouls early & (2) he won’t have the same usage/role when he plays with the starters... he’s not taking shots away from Lowry/FVV/Pascal & (3) he brings energy off the bench to extend the lead or turnaround the game.

Last night, Baynes was -10, but it was hard to fault him for the slow start. The other starters were straight up bricking open 3s. Defense wasn’t the problem.

Meh. The number of fouls is driven mostly by the number of minutes as well as how they defend (and set screens as those are sources of fouls for bigs), regardless if they start or not. Putting boucher in a situation where he would have to pace himself as far as his fouls and his coverages in relation to the consistent minutes/roles he earned should be part of his development. If that was the case we shouldn't be starting others among our best players so they would be protected from fouls, rested and ready to come out with energy to extend the lead or turn around the game at closing time. To me you start your best 5. Set the tone early rather then being on catch-up mode right out of the gates. Point #2 is a good one though, who he plays with makes a difference.

[golden]

No, you are right that it is more than just Gasol. Here's what happens though. You lose Gasol and Ibaka and Boucher steps up to take Ibaka's spot but who has taken Gasol's? And, also, who has taken Boucher's old spot? No one. In fact, it's even worse in that the spots have been filled by guys who aren't only not bringing anything to the table but actually taking things off the table. And you can say center is not a big deal but having negative players out there puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the guys night in, night out.

And go down the list. Who has taken RHJ's role? No one. Who has filled Davis 15-20 MPG from last year? No one. People forget that Davis won them a few games last year and RHJ was a godsend when injuries hit.

An even if overperform was wrong, then all of their top guys have definitely underperformed from last season. Norm is playing worse. Pascal is playing worse. Kyle, OG and FVV have all been inconsistent.

It's all left them with no margin for error and it's showing up with all the uncharacteristic mental mistakes, poor decision-making, panicking, etc. that we've seen.

.

Davis not filling Davis' 15-20MPG is a self-inflicted problem. He should be playing 25-30MPG this year.

[JawsGT]

No, you are right that it is more than just Gasol. Here's what happens though. You lose Gasol and Ibaka and Boucher steps up to take Ibaka's spot but who has taken Gasol's? And, also, who has taken Boucher's old spot? No one. In fact, it's even worse in that the spots have been filled by guys who aren't only not bringing anything to the table but actually taking things off the table. And you can say center is not a big deal but having negative players out there puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the guys night in, night out.
g
And go down the list. Who has taken RHJ's role? No one. Who has filled Davis 15-20 MPG from last year? No one. People forget that Davis won them a few games last year and RHJ was a godsend when injuries hit.

An even if overperform was wrong, then all of their top guys have definitely underperformed from last season. Norm is playing worse. Pascal is playing worse. Kyle, OG and FVV have all been inconsistent.

It's all left them with no margin for error and it's showing up with all the uncharacteristic mental mistakes, poor decision-making, panicking, etc. that we've seen.

.

I agree with this mostly. It just seems we are trying to fill the minutes and roles of fringe players, outside of gasol of course, which really shouldnt be that big of an issue. I mean, thats not enough to explain the drop off. We barely saw a difference with this team, until the bubble anyways, after losing kawhi and green. A big drop off after losing kawhi would make sense to me, but what we are seeing now after losing our Cs just doesnt add up. I dont know, makes me think there is something else going on...maybe just a slow start but if this continues over the next 6 games, then it might be time to consider moving on from this group and just start over. We dont need to rush out and trade all these guys, but Im starting to wonder if its worth it to invest in the FVV, OG, siakam core going forward.