Who Should Be Traded?

[planetmars]

No, but it's a START, DanH. You seem incredulous to the very idea of Life After Lowry. Well, it's gonna happen one day, either through free agency, trade or retirement. But, through trade he loses more value with each month and year of his career that passes him by. Right here, right now might be the most value he'll ever have.

And to those who suggest "sign him, trade him next year when he has term"...now THAT is a greasy move. That's the move that made Blake Griffin hate the Clippers ownership until the end of time.

I think the best time to trade him is when he's not on an expiring contract. He makes $30M and that's a lot of money. Especially for a contender. Wait until free agency and do a sign and trade if we can.

We missed out on getting the most value for him. That could have been at the beginning of the year when we gave up on Serge and lost out on Giannis. That's when teams would have still had an option to take him since their payrolls were not finalized. Or at the beginning of last season, but we had stuff to prove once Kawhi left us.

I think it would be hard for a team to take him for 2 months and give up $25M in contracts. Maybe if he commits to next year, but I don't see him doing that either.

[planetmars]

"If we had this, if we had that, if everything fell right, if we could only get healthy" "Siakam is doing bad because of covid 19" (every other player is immune to the covid/bubble distractions except poor Siakam?

These are, no offense mars, a bunch of excuses. The "if only we had a center" thing is like, well, yeah, we'd probably be better, just like if any other team fixed the biggest hole in their lineup. Boston has had injuries. Philly has had injuries, covid. Milwaukee has had injuries. Miami has been freaking ravaged.

We are our record you guys. We've lost ground.

I've watched every Raptor game.. you can see how bad it is without a center. All the fouling. The struggles to grab rebounds, and give teams 2nd or 3rd chances on each possession. The open 3pt looks because we over help and have guys wide open. It's all because we have no real center.

Siakam's stuff is dumb for sure.. but he's a fragile player. He was pretty good before Covid hit.. and was great last year. He needs the crowd/energy behind him. That's real stuff. And yeah I wish it wasn't.. but it was. Jamaal Murray needed a bubble to succeed. Siakam needs a crowd. Guys are just weird that way.

If Masai got us a center.. we'd be talking about how we match up against Brooklyn in the playoffs. But instead we're talking about tanking and shipping Lowry for guys like Herro or Thybulle.

[LJ2]

It's not just us getting worse. People rarely acknowledge or talk about the fact that other teams can get better.

Charlotte, Knicks and Bulls are traditional cannon fodder lottery teams that are moving towards respectability and can now make winning tougher for us. Add the Hawks to that group when DeAndre Hunter (and his ability to guard at least 3 positions) gets back.

Then there's the Nets, who went from a perennial 7-11 treadmill to the most talented team in the league. And the Sixers, who have all-star/MVP talent, but were simply overdue in changing their coach and putting shooters around Simmons & Embiid. And still have to deal with Miami, Boston & the Bucks, who have stood pat, but most people would rank above us, coming into this season.

Good point about the rest of the conference improving. Just keep in mind Raps have been operating as the best in the conference for so damn long while those teams have been at the bottom for just as long. Retooling in haste because you see the competition in the rearview is exactly the type of bad management that keeps you at the bottom of league like Knicks, Hawks, Charlotte etc. I hate what seems like a lack of direction from Masai and Bobby as much as the rest, but it's been half a season, let's give them a chance to show us their plan.

[slaw]

Good point about the rest of the conference improving. Just keep in mind Raps have been operating as the best in the conference for so damn long while those teams have been at the bottom for just as long. Retooling in haste because you see the competition in the rearview is exactly the type of bad management that keeps you at the bottom of league like Knicks, Hawks, Charlotte etc. I hate what seems like a lack of direction from Masai and Bobby as much as the rest, but it's been half a season, let's give them a chance to show us their plan.

Well, I think the plan is pretty clearly add a #1 option to the core of Siakam, OG, and FVV. I don't think that has changed. The who, what, when and how of it certainly has.

[DogeLover1234]

Good point about the rest of the conference improving. Just keep in mind Raps have been operating as the best in the conference for so damn long while those teams have been at the bottom for just as long. Retooling in haste because you see the competition in the rearview is exactly the type of bad management that keeps you at the bottom of league like Knicks, Hawks, Charlotte etc. I hate what seems like a lack of direction from Masai and Bobby as much as the rest, but it's been half a season, let's give them a chance to show us their plan.

Idk I see it pretty different. The seasons been a disappointment but not because we are a bad team as much as unfortunate. The one run we actually had our team in a groove we were really really good. To me that makes our holes good, cause its literally just adding the right piece. I feel like the core guys have given me enough to say If rather have them longterm than the teams you mentioned. Not saying making a trade is a bad idea, but take a step back, this isnt nearly the dumpster fire some are trying to make it.

Like all our picks, no bad contracts and 6 playoff calibre two way rotation guys. Is it crazy to think between last years picks, this years draft and another shot at minimums/MLE we wont add a 7 or 8th guy? Plus the idea that our guys arent getting better and those other teams are scratching the surface ignores all recent history

[LJ2]

Well, I think the plan is pretty clearly add a #1 option to the core of Siakam, OG, and FVV. I don't think that has changed. The who, what, when and how of it certainly has.

That's a lot left to wonder about. The assets to trade for a #1 are not there currently. Not without giving up some of that core which would leave us in no better shape. Not sure if the idea is to wait and see if Kawhi has a change of heart (doubtful) or if they think tossing in our FRP in a package can land a top 10-20 type player like Beal. Again, not clear at all to me.

[LJ2]

Idk I see it pretty different. The seasons been a disappointment but not because we are a bad team as much as unfortunate. The one run we actually had our team in a groove we were really really good. To me that makes our holes good, cause its literally just adding the right piece. I feel like the core guys have given me enough to say If rather have them longterm than the teams you mentioned. Not saying making a trade is a bad idea, but take a step back, this isnt nearly the dumpster fire some are trying to make it.

I think we are both in agreement LOL. We aren't the Knicks or Charlotte's of the NBA that have been toiling at the bottom forever. We have good young pieces locked up and are already better than those teams who have been in the lottery forever just to get into our rear view. It's just almost inevitable that we have to be not great for a bit while our assets and càp stuff balance out. People just need to accept we aren't going to be great every year.

I just think there are a few things we can do to move this retool along a bit faster but Masai and Bobby are the ones who are experts in asset valuation..

[golden]

No, but it's a START, DanH. You seem incredulous to the very idea of Life After Lowry. Well, it's gonna happen one day, either through free agency, trade or retirement. But, through trade he loses more value with each month and year of his career that passes him by. Right here, right now might be the most value he'll ever have.

And to those who suggest "sign him, trade him next year when he has term"...now THAT is a greasy move. That's the move that made Blake Griffin hate the Clippers ownership until the end of time.

The “greasy move” is simply smart asset retention. I see nothing wrong with it.... the player still cashes million dollar cheques. If we keep Kyle and Norm through the deadline, then we absolutely MUST re-sign them at whatever market value is. Or worst case, work with them to get a sign & trade, which is typically crappy value back.

The same asset management principles that applied to retaining FVV, should apply to Norm and Kyle, at least to some degree.

That is why I found it infuriating that we didn’t re-sign Ibaka. A stretch 5 with a boatload of playoff and championship experience is a desired NBA commodity. His contract should have been easily tradeable, if Giannis wanted
to come here. Terrible asset management and player market valuation with the whole Ibaka fiasco.

[Dr Hannibal Lecter]

If Kyle Lowry or Powell stay, I dont want Masai back, because his not doing what best for franchise..I'm pretty sure Bobby webster want's them gone. It would be stupid 2 keep them..there not coming back..U gonna pay Powell 20 million...lol..Lowry is 35, his not the same, he aint taking a discount..not worth it, move on..this report about keeping Lowry after the trade deadline, that is just stupid, wake up..

[JawsGT]

Gotta keep the salary high folks, resigning Lowry and Norm are absolute musts if the perfect trades arent available. And I think those trades need to return some salary as well, not just expirings and picks. Not if we want to compete in the short term, and we should cause we are not that far off. If we roll into next season without the value of the salaries of norm and lowry on the books, we could easily lack the assets needed to make a splash without sacrificing one of the core, which I assume is fred, pascal and OG, as they are the only contracts with term atm.

I'd be perfectly happy dishing out the 50M+ to keep those two here to start next season. We gotta play the game the way the warriors are. Stay above the cap. They were lucky they got Durant to deal a SnT, cause Im pretty sure the nets had the cap space. But Russel's salary got them wiggins and that Minny pick. Wiggins is now the salary ballast that can be used in a subsequent trade, along with wiseman and that minny pick to get them another star. Hell they could offer that plus another couple of picks for towns. Imagine that ha.

But that was a unique situation, you cant plan for a series of moves to play out like that.

Heres a deal I'd consider:

Norm + Filler for Oubre + minny's pick. Too generous for Norm I know, so the raps include their own pick as well.

Still not enough but heres GSWs logic in my mind. Norm is better than Oubre and wiggins. They dont want Oubre, but they do want his salary. Norm would come with bird rights. Norm is excellent and would be a great complement to steph and klay. The problem, of course, is that the type of deal I outlined above is a better use of that minny pick than norm. The warriors are no doubt gonna target a bigger fish. Maybe that deal could get them beal. Although I'd argue Norm might be a better fit than beal, but beal is the better asset. Or even Towns, how ironic that would be? Is that alanis ironic, she f'd it all up for me.

Anyways, thats the type of deal I'd take where we dont get any quality salary back. Oubre is expiring and although I'm not high on him, I would resign him for less than he presently makes just to have the money on the books. Not like we have cap space otherwise. And even if we did, low and behold the 2 best options could very well be our own RFAs, norm and lowry.

Ultimately, its unlikely that a trade is available that nets us a top 5 or even top 10 pick. So we need quality players coming back because the sacrifice of losing lowry and powell is not worth the risk that comes with middling draft picks, as good as this team is at drafting. We need quality players to complement our core next season, whether its in the form of lowry and norm, or good players with good contracts with maybe a prospect and middling pick or two. I'd also consider that miami deal for lowry thats been tossed out. Olynk is a decent player on a decent contract, and herro is a great prospect. Throw in that middling pick or two and its reasonable I think. I'd prefer that to the philly deal cause there is no piece coming back that has good salary with it. The pickscoming back would be similarly unappealing , thybulle and herro have similar potential albeit on opposite ends of the floor, but what else ya got?

[bertarapsfan]

Ive been on the trade powell train but if what we are seeing is then someones paying him 20 millions this year. If we are going to pay him that he has to be a starter and if he is going to be a starter then Kyle will probably be gone. We have to have to trade one of him or kyle at the deadline cause from a team building sense it doesnt make sense to have them both back at big paychecks next year. Kyles too good to come off the bench and its too expensive to pay Norm 20 mil to be a 6th man and who know if his play translate to off the bench anyways.
Tough choices for bobby and masai

[golden]

Ive been on the trade powell train but if what we are seeing is then someones paying him 20 millions this year. If we are going to pay him that he has to be a starter and if he is going to be a starter then Kyle will probably be gone. We have to have to trade one of him or kyle at the deadline cause from a team building sense it doesnt make sense to have them both back at big paychecks next year. Kyles too good to come off the bench and its too expensive to pay Norm 20 mil to be a 6th man and who know if his play translate to off the bench anyways.
Tough choices for bobby and masai

You sign Norm as a trade chip for when Beal or Lavine shakes loose. You sign Lowry to flip to a contender at the deadline with at least another year in his contract.

This is strictly asset management, not team building because the FVV/OG/Siakam core is nowhere close to being anywhere close.

You need as many tradeable assets under your control to hold & flip so you add to that core. Heck, even consider what could Norm + OG get back in a trade next year?

[bertarapsfan]

You sign Norm as a trade chip for when Beal or Lavine shakes loose. You sign Lowry to flip to a contender at the deadline with at least another year in his contract.

This is strictly asset management, not team building because the FVV/OG/Siakam core is nowhere close to being anywhere close.

You need as many tradeable assets under your control to hold & flip so you add to that core. Heck, even consider what could Norm + OG get back in a trade next year?

But both there value may only go down next year. Both guys might be a peak value for the next 7 days. If Norm goes back to playing off the bench he isnt going to be putting up these same numbers, If kyle starts to decline next season teams wont be willing to give up as much. Lots of team probably think they can make the confrence finals this year, Maybe the Nets dominate and we enter an era like the Warriors peak where less teams are trying to make a finals thus less suitors for Kyle. I think we have to make a desicions on both guys this deadline. If they are both here March 26th i assume the front office is keen on keeping both.

[bertarapsfan]

But both there value may only go down next year. Both guys might be a peak value for the next 7 days. If Norm goes back to playing off the bench he isnt going to be putting up these same numbers, If kyle starts to decline next season teams wont be willing to give up as much. Lots of team probably think they can make the confrence finals this year, Maybe the Nets dominate and we enter an era like the Warriors peak where less teams are trying to make a finals thus less suitors for Kyle. I think we have to make a desicions on both guys this deadline. If they are both here March 26th i assume the front office is keen on keeping both.

Plus both might just decide to leave on there own this offseason. Kyle can choose to go to a contender and Norm might choose to go to a guaranteed starting role. Both guys may see a better future outside of Toronto and we might pussy foot around like we did with Gasol and Serge trying to decide which one to keep and end up losing both for nothing.

[DogeLover1234]

I think we are both in agreement LOL. We aren't the Knicks or Charlotte's of the NBA that have been toiling at the bottom forever. We have good young pieces locked up and are already better than those teams who have been in the lottery forever just to get into our rear view. It's just almost inevitable that we have to be not great for a bit while our assets and càp stuff balance out. People just need to accept we aren't going to be great every year.

I just think there are a few things we can do to move this retool along a bit faster but Masai and Bobby are the ones who are experts in asset valuation..

lol Had some time to spare at the mechanic and wasn't reading comments too closely. I dont think we HAVE to retool, just that there is more upside given the context. Cleaning the Glass has us with a slightly positive +/- good for 12 in the league, and before the covid stuff was up there with Philly. I wouldn't blame Masai and Webster for keeping together a really good team, cause honestly I don't know if the expected value of trade returns for Lowry + Powell actually replace their production. Keep everyone together and maybe instead of Baynes you get a decent center with the MLE, land a pick, Flynn comes along and all the sudden you have some depth as well as a really good top 6. In another world we reproduce last seasons win totals and are sitting 2nd in the east.

That being said we have been one of the most unlucky teams in terms of win differential (not to mention the whole every games a road game), which makes it worth considering. If you think Fred, Siakam and OG are going to struggle to return as others have and maybe can't reliably play heavy minutes in the playoffs, its really tempting to move Lowry and Powell for good deals. We probably don't drop too much more in the standings, but all still have roughly 25-33% chance of moving up which is surprisingly good. With the extra picks and prospects you have the resources to move on a star like Beal without losing a core guy, if not just get some extra darts to shoot and have enough cap space still to sign a midlevel guy in addition to a MLE guy. All in all thats really high upside. Im honestly not sure if that gives you a better chance of a championship than bringing everyone back and hoping you hit on the margins, because you just need so much to go right and odds are you just end up with a mid lotto pick, some extra late firsts and mediocre rotation guys - none of which replacing Lowry + Powell. Im somewhat of a gambler though and don't mind the high risk, but I don't have skin in the game.