Can DeMar surpass Harden?

[S.R.]

This is completely my opinion, but I could care less how much of a douche a player is to his team mates if he has talent and can help win games. Being chummy with your team is good and all, but if it doesn't lead to wins it doesn't matter. Now I'm not saying Harden is anywhere close to Kobe, but from what i read Kobe wasn't exactly the best team mate in his younger days either. But who would complain about having Kobe on their team?

Reducing the chemistry/leadership issue to being "chummy" or a good locker room buddy is a gross misrepresentation about what was said. The argument against a guy like Harden, whether or not it's valid, is that despite immense personal basketball talent, his impact on the overall success of the team is not that great. Basically it's a version of the Ewing theory.

If you're looking for a list of selfish basketball players who don't play a lick of defense and who were the #1 guy on championship teams in the NBA, your list will be very, very short. In spite of immensely different personalities and leadership styles, regardless of whether or not they were well liked by their teammates, it's pretty well recognized that guys like Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, MJ, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. etc. made their teams much, much better simply by being on them. It's a totally valid argument that some guys fill the stat sheet with personal skills that don't seem to translate to proportionately heightened team success.

I'm with willamlou in that I don't think we have enough of a track record/info with Harden to be able to say this definitively about him. His first year in Houston he helped bring their win total up by 11 (from 34 to 45) and his second year he and Dwight helped bump them up another 9 (45 to 54). That's a win total jump of 20 in 2 seasons with him as the #1 guy. That's pretty damn good.

His attitude is a bit off imho but these are his first 2 years as a team leader. He may figure some of this stuff out.

[rightsideup]

this is completely my opinion, but i could care less how much of a douche a player is to his team mates if he has talent and can help win games. Being chummy with your team is good and all, but if it doesn't lead to wins it doesn't matter. Now i'm not saying harden is anywhere close to kobe, but from what i read kobe wasn't exactly the best team mate in his younger days either. But who would complain about having kobe on their team?

shaq

[Pong]

I remember not too long ago someone posted a link to a Lithuanian article interviewing motiejunas. He was talking about the rockets and how they weren't a true team, where Howard and Harden would eat meals at a different table than everyone else, wouldn't say hi to anyone when they showed up for practice or games, in general just wouldn't do decent human being/teammate things.

I think it's safe to say his teammates don't like him.

All that efficient scoring aside, the fact that he is such a douche is the reason some (maybe even most) Toronto sports fans would rather have Demar. He's a "Toronto" guy.

It becomes even more amplified when you compare the recent "success" of the rockets to some other teams who are known to play for each other (blazers, spurs come to mind).

This is completely my opinion, but I could care less how much of a douche a player is to his team mates if he has talent and can help win games. Being chummy with your team is good and all, but if it doesn't lead to wins it doesn't matter. Now I'm not saying Harden is anywhere close to Kobe, but from what i read Kobe wasn't exactly the best team mate in his younger days either. But who would complain about having Kobe on their team?

[godkingleonidas]

Good analysis. Future looking, yet stated as factual. Recognizes the difference between the strength of the east and the west and adjusts for it. Correlates team success 100% to the one player in question. Well done.

Why not? Harden correlated the success of his team to two players. Didn't he also refer to himself as the best player in the NBA today?

[e_wheazhy_]

I'm leery to speculate on any players' personality, and how it affects his locker room's dynamic. No one knows that, not even the beat writers. We aren't privy to the thoughts in their minds.

That being said, I'd say the odds are good that Harden isn't terribly adored by his teammates.

I remember not too long ago someone posted a link to a Lithuanian article interviewing motiejunas. He was talking about the rockets and how they weren't a true team, where Howard and Harden would eat meals at a different table than everyone else, wouldn't say hi to anyone when they showed up for practice or games, in general just wouldn't do decent human being/teammate things.

I think it's safe to say his teammates don't like him.

All that efficient scoring aside, the fact that he is such a douche is the reason some (maybe even most) Toronto sports fans would rather have Demar. He's a "Toronto" guy.

It becomes even more amplified when you compare the recent "success" of the rockets to some other teams who are known to play for each other (blazers, spurs come to mind).

[MACK11]

The one thing DeMar is elite at is getting the the line and Harden is even better at DD then that.

I'm not saying Harden is world's better then DeMar but right now Harden is clearly better.

Harden is a terrible teammate though and DeMar is better to play with but right now if someone offered us Harden for Derozan we should take that 10/10.

Harden is more talented then DeMar and talent wins in this league

[Pong]

Needs to do quite a lot more than that. Also needs to start getting to the rim more frequently, Harden gets their twice as often as he does.

Yes I know, I already said that Harden's better than him in other areas too. But for him to even be remotely close, he needs to start making 3s. The reason Harden's able to get to the rim so much is because he's a threat from any where on the court. When he has the ball above the arc in the triple threat position, he can either drive or pull up for a 3. When Derozan's up there, he has to rely heavily on screens to get free because defenders tend to sag off of him up there.

[NaijaBoy17]

Demar is good and has a great work ethic, but come on guys. Even with his defensive deficiencies, we're talking about one of the best players in the league here. Talk all you want about leadership and whether he's a cool cat in the locker room (and tbh i bet that is much more an issue with howard than harden), but at the end of the day players simply want to play with people who can get it done. Howard, who isn't as good as he was pre-injury but still one of the most dominant big men in the league, joined the rockets because harden was there.

Someone mentioned Parsons leaving because he didn't want to play with harden, but that's simply not true. Parsons himself said that he was ticked off because Morey was pushing hard for melo, and making his resigning an afterthought.

DD may not be far off from harden in PPG, but their games are significantly different. Harden's player efficiency rating is far ahead of derozan because he either shoots 3s or attacks the rim. Look at that shot chart someone posted earlier. Harden rarely shoots long 2s, which is considered as one of the worst shots to take in a game. Harden is also a much better playmaker and ball handler as well.

For Demar to even come close to Harden, he needs to start making his 3pters. Once he does than MAYBE he has a chance to surpass him.

Needs to do quite a lot more than that. Also needs to start getting to the rim more frequently, Harden gets their twice as often as he does.

[Pong]

Demar is good and has a great work ethic, but come on guys. Even with his defensive deficiencies, we're talking about one of the best players in the league here. Talk all you want about leadership and whether he's a cool cat in the locker room (and tbh i bet that is much more an issue with howard than harden), but at the end of the day players simply want to play with people who can get it done. Howard, who isn't as good as he was pre-injury but still one of the most dominant big men in the league, joined the rockets because harden was there.

Someone mentioned Parsons leaving because he didn't want to play with harden, but that's simply not true. Parsons himself said that he was ticked off because Morey was pushing hard for melo, and making his resigning an afterthought.

DD may not be far off from harden in PPG, but their games are significantly different. Harden's player efficiency rating is far ahead of derozan because he either shoots 3s or attacks the rim. Look at that shot chart someone posted earlier. Harden rarely shoots long 2s, which is considered as one of the worst shots to take in a game. Harden is also a much better playmaker and ball handler as well.

For Demar to even come close to Harden, he needs to start making his 3pters. Once he does than MAYBE he has a chance to surpass him.

[Mr.Z]

I haven't watched the entirety of every preseason game, but I think the reason for the high percentage is he's shooting threes almost exclusively from the corners in catch and shoot situations.

If he maintained that during the regular season, his 3PT percentage would probably approach 38-40%. It's how a guy like Kawhi Leonard in 2012-13 (who really was a terrible 3Pt shooter from above the break that year) was still able to shoot 37% from the arc.

I think it's actually key that DeRozan almost exclusively shoot his 3s from the corners. Obviously this will mean less attempts, but shooting those threes from the wings and straight on makes no sense for him because he shoots in the low 20%s from there. At that clip, it's actually more efficient for him to just fire a 16-23 footer. If he takes 10 attempts from mid-range and hits 40%, that's 4/10 or 8 points. If he takes 10 attempts from a 3 at the same angle and hits 20%, that's 2/10 or 6 points.

So actually when DeRozan takes those long-2s he's taking a more efficient shot (for him) than a 3PTer from the 45s or straight on.

You have to consider though that in practice he probably shoots more like 6/10 or 7/10 which will effect his decision making in game.

[Mr.Z]

And everything you read on the internet is true, eh. Somebody, a mod perhaps(?), messed with it. Dirty pool, sleezy, low, pity.

Dude, I read it yesterday before you commented on it. It was there.

[sleepz]

You must be kidding, right? If anyone would take DD over JH, they need to get their head examined. JH isnt perfect, I agree with that, but he is an awesome scorer. People kind of slip in "if DD could just improve his 3 pt shooting", like its a simple thing to do. Its not like we are asking DD to shed a few pounds or even to take the ball to the hole more (which is a skill he has shown, but perhaps should just go to more).

DD will never be an elite 3 pt shooter .. he just doesnt have the mechanics or ability. With hard work, he might become serviceable shooting OPEN 3s (right now hes pretty bad shooting OPEN 3s). Harden is great shooting contested 3s and pull ups (not to mention his ability to get to the hoop and get fouled).

Long story short, DD is making good progress, but Harden is a big, big leap

+1

Nothing wrong with supporting the team and it's players but anyone thinking Derozan is anywhere near or has the ability (handles are like night and day between the two) to surpass JH, is relying on straight homerism to make that argument. It's not based on basketball abilities.

[chico]

The reference to his post saying that was at 5:59PM. The most recent edit to the post was at 3:25PM. So yeah it was there at the time stamp by two full hours.

And everything you read on the internet is true, eh. Somebody, a mod perhaps(?), messed with it. Dirty pool, sleezy, low, pity.

[NaijaBoy17]

He's making them very well in preseason. But he's had early season stretches that didn't translate to a full year before.

I haven't watched the entirety of every preseason game, but I think the reason for the high percentage is he's shooting threes almost exclusively from the corners in catch and shoot situations.

If he maintained that during the regular season, his 3PT percentage would probably approach 38-40%. It's how a guy like Kawhi Leonard in 2012-13 (who really was a terrible 3Pt shooter from above the break that year) was still able to shoot 37% from the arc.

I think it's actually key that DeRozan almost exclusively shoot his 3s from the corners. Obviously this will mean less attempts, but shooting those threes from the wings and straight on makes no sense for him because he shoots in the low 20%s from there. At that clip, it's actually more efficient for him to just fire a 16-23 footer. If he takes 10 attempts from mid-range and hits 40%, that's 4/10 or 8 points. If he takes 10 attempts from a 3 at the same angle and hits 20%, that's 2/10 or 6 points.

So actually when DeRozan takes those long-2s he's taking a more efficient shot (for him) than a 3PTer from the 45s or straight on.

[mountio]

Which one will lead his team out of the first round this season? Answer: DeRozan. DeMar has already surpassed Harden.

Good analysis. Future looking, yet stated as factual. Recognizes the difference between the strength of the east and the west and adjusts for it. Correlates team success 100% to the one player in question. Well done.