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Game #34 Toronto Raptors vs Detroit Pistons Mar. 3, 7:00 pm Eastern(???)

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  • Maury
    replied
    Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Is harris even healthy? He hasn't played for the 905 since dislocating his finger. I guess it's back in place. Tonight should be fun. Tomorrow should be a bloodbath

    Live footage of Maury going out with a bang

    I got jobbed by the NBA, the government, the CDC, and Kawhi.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    S.R. wrote: View Post
    Yeah it's really hard to separate the coach from the personnel but I do recall a visible on-court improvement going from Triano > Casey as far as player effort, hustle, defensive intensity - they just looked like more of a team, trying harder, more of the time.

    That said they were a 22 win team in Triano's last year and a 23 win team in Casey's first year. The next year Kyle Lowry arrived and wins went 34 > 48 > 49 > 56 the next 4 seasons and they were suddenly a perennial 50+ win second or third round playoff team. In hindsight now I wonder how much of that was Kyle Lowry more than anybody else, if you're attributing influence to one guy.

    But I would say this as an oversimplification maybe - Casey is a coach who raises the floor of your team but Nurse is a coach who raises the ceiling of your team.

    Having said that, Case was back to coaching a 20 win team in Detroit last year so there's that whole personnel vs coach issue again....
    Sure, Lowry and Masai deserve most of the credit. A guy like Nate McMillan might have gotten the same results as Casey. But also remember that Lowry was almost run out of town until Masai traded Rudy Gay for the actual bench depth that Lowry could elevate. It's a bit of both.

    Casey as floor raiser and Nurse as ceiling raiser is what I said earlier, especially pertaining to the first taste of regular role for young guys and developing a minimally functional bench. So yeah, in agreement with that general premise. In Nurse's championship year, recall that Fred, OG and Powell took steps backwards, CJ lost his confidence entirely and flamed out of the league and Nurse had no time for Delon, so he got traded. There's a definite pattern there with Nurse and young players / bench development and it isn't all roses, even when we had more depth.

    Leave a comment:


  • S.R.
    replied
    Yeah it's really hard to separate the coach from the personnel but I do recall a visible on-court improvement going from Triano > Casey as far as player effort, hustle, defensive intensity - they just looked like more of a team, trying harder, more of the time.

    That said they were a 22 win team in Triano's last year and a 23 win team in Casey's first year. The next year Kyle Lowry arrived and wins went 34 > 48 > 49 > 56 the next 4 seasons and they were suddenly a perennial 50+ win second or third round playoff team. In hindsight now I wonder how much of that was Kyle Lowry more than anybody else, if you're attributing influence to one guy.

    But I would say this as an oversimplification maybe - Casey is a coach who raises the floor of your team but Nurse is a coach who raises the ceiling of your team.

    Having said that, Case was back to coaching a 20 win team in Detroit last year so there's that whole personnel vs coach issue again....

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    I mean Fred, Wright, Jacob, Siakam, Poeltl bench was there for one year. Other years it was Lou Williams ISO, Greivis Vasquez ISO, Patterson bricking, Cory Jo dribbling air out of the ball. So I'm having hard time giving props to Casey. Just seems like that bench was full of talented players and it all came together for them that year.

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    LJ2 wrote: View Post

    Meh, Nurse was brought in with a completely different mandate, to win a championship, and the following year was asked to defend that championship. Then it was all about looking like a contender that's just missing the final piece (Giannis). I don't take his lack of focus on developing young talent the last couple of seasons as he's not capable of it. We also didn't have our FRP from 2019, and they gave up on DeWan. This season really should have been when Nurse started focusing on the young guys again (Flynn/Davis/Harris), but for whatever reason he hasn't. Really can't see Masai's vision for this season all that clearly yet.
    Fair enough. In many ways, last season's surprising overachievement after Kawhi left, had a few drawbacks that are being felt this year: aside from not focusing on player development, we probably would have traded Ibaka, Gasol and Lowry at the trade deadline last year and got some assets back.

    Leave a comment:


  • G__Deane
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    now if the (insert team name here) shot like they normally do, we probably would have still squeaked out a win.
    If I had a loonie for every time I have read that .... career highs and outsized shooting percentages from scrubs happen regularly against this club for some reason

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    The Great One wrote: View Post

    Other than DeRozan, Ross and JV, who else did Casey developed? DD, Ross and JV were lottery picks, they were supposed to be good. Wright? ok. Powell? Powell has really developed the player that he is now under Nurse.

    Do we give Casey the credit for the developent of Siakam, OG and Fred? he only had OG for a year. Siakam and Fred were bench players under Casey. Fred and Siakam really developed in 2019(Nurse 1st year). Everyone wanted to bench Fred after the Sixers series but Nurse sticked with him. 2 years later he's now their best player.

    A coach also can't magically transform a bad player into a good player. The player also has to put in the work. Davis and Thomas are just low IQ bad players. It's getting obvious everyday now. Yuta and Stanley are no different. You can't blame Nurse for their play. They're no different from Bennett, Bebe, Bruno, Miller, McKinnie and Malachi Richardson(all Casey's guys). Many of the players that played for the Raptors last night went undrafted, there's a reason for that. In Stanley's case, he's just a bust like Bennett. You can't blame Stan Van Gundy that the Pistons GM drafted him 5th overall.
    When I say development, I'm talking specifically about young guys cracking the lineup for the first time and staying in there consistently with a defined role. .

    New guys who permanently cracked the lineup under Casey: JV, DeRozan, Ross, OG, Fred, Norm, Jakob, Siakam, Wright
    New guys who permanently cracked the lineup under Nurse: Boucher

    Nurse has been using Casey's guys and making them better, which he should get a lot of credit for as should the players' themselves for hard work in the off-season. Boucher is playing mostly on the basis of his freak physical tools and working on his 3-pt shot.

    Leave a comment:


  • chris
    replied
    The Great One wrote: View Post

    Other than DeRozan, Ross and JV, who else did Casey developed? DD, Ross and JV were lottery picks, they were supposed to be good. Wright? ok. Powell? Powell has really developed the player that he is now under Nurse.

    Do we give Casey the credit for the developent of Siakam, OG and Fred? he only had OG for a year. Siakam and Fred were bench players under Casey. Fred and Siakam really developed in 2019(Nurse 1st year). Everyone wanted to bench Fred after the Sixers series but Nurse sticked with him. 2 years later he's now their best player.

    A coach also can't magically transform a bad player into a good player. The player also has to put in the work. Davis and Thomas are just low IQ bad players. It's getting obvious everyday now. Yuta and Stanley are no different. You can't blame Nurse for their play. They're no different from Bennett, Bebe, Bruno, Miller, McKinnie and Malachi Richardson(all Casey's guys). Many of the players that played for the Raptors last night went undrafted, there's a reason for that. In Stanley's case, he's just a bust like Bennett. You can't blame Stan Van Gundy that the Pistons GM drafted him 5th overall.
    lol i think in this case stan van is the only person that deserves blame.

    funnier still that stanley was probably one of his best picks

    Leave a comment:


  • The Great One
    replied
    Btw, i'm not blaming Casey that Bennett, Miller, Bruno, Bebe, Richardson etc...didn't turn into something. Like I said, a coach can't magically transform a bad player into a good player.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Great One
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Re: developing bench depth. That is definitely starting to look like a real weakness of the Nurse vs Casey's approach to developing end-of-bench guys into consistent rotation players. Last night that contrast was exposed in its full glory.

    Nurse's approach has a higher ceiling for the playoffs for better players, but is more complicated to learn and requires players to make more decisions. Casey's approach limits what each guy can do, but you can plug in lower BBIQ and less skilled guys and have a higher floor for scrubs... in the regular season. Last night was the battle of the srubs.
    Other than DeRozan, Ross and JV, who else did Casey developed? DD, Ross and JV were lottery picks, they were supposed to be good. Wright? ok. Powell? Powell has really developed the player that he is now under Nurse.

    Do we give Casey the credit for the developent of Siakam, OG and Fred? he only had OG for a year. Siakam and Fred were bench players under Casey. Fred and Siakam really developed in 2019(Nurse 1st year). Everyone wanted to bench Fred after the Sixers series but Nurse sticked with him. 2 years later he's now their best player.

    A coach also can't magically transform a bad player into a good player. The player also has to put in the work. Davis and Thomas are just low IQ bad players. It's getting obvious everyday now. Yuta and Stanley are no different. You can't blame Nurse for their play. They're no different from Bennett, Bebe, Bruno, Miller, McKinnie and Malachi Richardson(all Casey's guys). Many of the players that played for the Raptors last night went undrafted, there's a reason for that. In Stanley's case, he's just a bust like Bennett. You can't blame Stan Van Gundy that the Pistons GM drafted him 5th overall.

    Leave a comment:


  • DanH
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post

    It's a team with very little margin for error missing a bunch of guys and the head coach. Not sure what people expected. Guys like Mat Thomas and Paul Watson haven't played in weeks (months?) - what they could possibly do out there? The team has no front court depth and both of its forwards were hurt. They were lucky it was only a 24 point loss.
    I don't think they could have been much more unlucky with the Pistons hitting half their threes, no matter how open they were.

    But this was definitely going to be a tough one to win. It would have required good luck and perfect rotations to win and they got neither.

    Leave a comment:


  • slaw
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    Didn't think they could top that loss to Minny earlier this season.. but wow that was ugly. The depth/bench is the worst I've seen in a long-long time. Norm and Lowry needed help.. now if the Pistons shot like they normally do, we probably would have still squeaked out a win.. I mean we did get it to a 5 point game somewhere in the 4th. It's just that the bench did absolutely nothing and gave the Pistons points.
    It's a team with very little margin for error missing a bunch of guys and the head coach. Not sure what people expected. Guys like Mat Thomas and Paul Watson haven't played in weeks (months?) - what they could possibly do out there? The team has no front court depth and both of its forwards were hurt. They were lucky it was only a 24 point loss.

    Leave a comment:


  • LJ2
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post

    Re: developing bench depth. That is definitely starting to look like a real weakness of the Nurse vs Casey's approach to developing end-of-bench guys into consistent rotation players. Last night that contrast was exposed in its full glory.

    Nurse's approach has a higher ceiling for the playoffs for better players, but is more complicated to learn and requires players to make more decisions. Casey's approach limits what each guy can do, but you can plug in lower BBIQ and less skilled guys and have a higher floor for scrubs... in the regular season. Last night was the battle of the srubs.
    Meh, Nurse was brought in with a completely different mandate, to win a championship, and the following year was asked to defend that championship. Then it was all about looking like a contender that's just missing the final piece (Giannis). I don't take his lack of focus on developing young talent the last couple of seasons as he's not capable of it. We also didn't have our FRP from 2019, and they gave up on DeWan. This season really should have been when Nurse started focusing on the young guys again (Flynn/Davis/Harris), but for whatever reason he hasn't. Really can't see Masai's vision for this season all that clearly yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • MixxAOR
    replied
    Bench is not exactly brimming with high end talent

    Leave a comment:


  • golden
    replied
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    Didn't think they could top that loss to Minny earlier this season.. but wow that was ugly. The depth/bench is the worst I've seen in a long-long time. Norm and Lowry needed help.. now if the Pistons shot like they normally do, we probably would have still squeaked out a win.. I mean we did get it to a 5 point game somewhere in the 4th. It's just that the bench did absolutely nothing and gave the Pistons points.

    off the top of my head...

    Yuta goes on a fast break and botches it because he's out of control. He shoots basically two air balls from 3. Stanley air balled a 3.. I definitely remember at least one, but he missed both his shots. Boucher was letting the Pistons big man get in the paint and shooting floaters above him, every single time. He was over helping on defense, getting guys easy dunks in the paint too. Doesn't help that there were so many Pistons blowing by our perimeter defenders. Matt Thomas was absolutely horrendous. Terrence Davis started, but oh boy was he horrible. Taking side step 3's with a guy in his face with 17 seconds on the clock and bricking it. To missing a wide open 3 that Lowry gifts him.. to coming back on defense and fouling a guy at the half court line when they were in the bonus. He was 2-11 and one of his makes was in garbage time I believe. Bembry put up 0's except for 5 dimes.. but was usually out of control and losing the ball. He had 4 fouls and was a -23. Watson was pretty good although a bit erratic. Just didn't get enough time for some reason.

    The Raptors have always had depth under Masai.. actually that was his first big trade. Swapping Gay for a bench turned that team around. We have no bench this year. Our bench is just full of scrubs. Baynes, a starter last night, is a bench big.. and sucks.. but he was maybe our 3rd best player which speaks volumes.

    Maybe its Covid and not playing in front of a proper crowd that wrecked our bench. I have no idea.. but they were awful last night. And it's going to be worst tonight. Pritchard is going to score 50 on us.

    On the positive.. Norm has evolved into a consistent scorer. He was doing some funky things last night. I really see no reason to trade him for a Beal or Dipo. He's really the only one that can score consistently on a team that has trouble scoring the ball.

    And Lowry was great as usual, but he couldn't carry that bench. He tried.. but that bench just flat out sucks.
    Re: developing bench depth. That is definitely starting to look like a real weakness of the Nurse vs Casey's approach to developing end-of-bench guys into consistent rotation players. Last night that contrast was exposed in its full glory.

    Nurse's approach has a higher ceiling for the playoffs for better players, but is more complicated to learn and requires players to make more decisions. Casey's approach limits what each guy can do, but you can plug in lower BBIQ and less skilled guys and have a higher floor for scrubs... in the regular season. Last night was the battle of the srubs.

    Leave a comment:

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