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Game #36 Atlanta @ Toronto (Tampa) - Thursday March 11, 7:30PM EST

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  • A.I wrote: View Post

    To be fair, Carroll got hit by injuries and still hasn't gotten back to the level he was pre injury, same goes for Sullinger, Scola was old and was Hansbrough ever good? All I remember was the guy got into scraps.
    They were all brought in at the time to be our 3rd or 4th big. Fat, old, and getting into fights was their scouting reports respectively according to this, and we chose them. So...to be fair, those aren't excuses, those are mistakes.
    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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    • KeonClark wrote: View Post
      OK, so you guys are content with the free agency track record. Fair enough.

      All I know is that in the past, "Lowry, Powell and the bench" win this game by 8. Remember Lowry and the bench? That group could win 48 games in the East! Now, "the bench" is a bunch of G league level guys. Other than Lowry, Powell, Boucher and maybe Bembry, the rest of the guys that played last night will be lucky to be in the league in 2 or 3 years.

      That's why I'm of the opinion we have to trade Lowry, and came to that conclusion halfway through this season when I saw how much we were "getting" from guys like Terrence Davis and Matt Thomas etc. There's nothing on this roster coming down the pipe. I know a treadmill when I see one. I'm a Vancouver Canucks fan living in Calgary, and while it's different sports, both the Canucks and Flames denied needing a rebuild for far too long and now they're both a mess.

      We don't need a "rebuild", but we definitely need a retool. Lowry is not getting any younger, and bringing the band back plus adding maybe a 18th overall pick doesn't exactly inspire me when you look at Brooklyn and Philly and Boston and Milwaukee all set up for the next few years.

      If Lowry can get you a lotto pick, or a blue chipper, you need to add him to this promising(but well short of where we need to go) core of Fred, Pascal, OG and Norm.
      Nah, I agree with you. Not counting undrafted guys like FVV & TD, Masai's track record signing free agents is absolutely abysmal. Boucher & Bismack might be the best of the sorry lot.

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      • KeonClark wrote: View Post

        I expected he could show up to camp not looking like the notorious b.i.g.
        Yeah, your expectations were way too high then.

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        • KeonClark wrote: View Post
          OK, so you guys are content with the free agency track record. Fair enough.
          Nah, I'm also not arguing with you there.

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          • Is this a failure on the part of Masai or an issue this team has due to location? I'm trying to think of which free agents Colangelo brought in...Lowry was traded here...only guy I can think of was Jermaine O'Neal who was quite a bit past his prime. The best players other than Kyle whom have worn a Raps uniform have all been drafted, and all except Damon and McGrady resigned.

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            • LJ2 wrote: View Post
              Is this a failure on the part of Masai or an issue this team has due to location? I'm trying to think of which free agents Colangelo brought in...Lowry was traded here...only guy I can think of was Jermaine O'Neal who was quite a bit past his prime. The best players other than Kyle whom have worn a Raps uniform have all been drafted, and all except Damon and McGrady resigned.
              BC had some pretty decent success with Euro FAs: Jose, Garbo, Anthony Parker, Rasho & Kleiza. Heck even Jamario Moon and Landry Fields would be considered more successful FA signings than 80% of the guys Masai signed.

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              • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                OK, so you guys are content with the free agency track record. Fair enough.
                Content more in the fact that Masai signed players with the cap space he had. Again, most of the cap space we had was used to re-sign the core. Sullinger was signed with the MLE, Scola was signed 1 year, $3 million, Hansbrough was signed for 2 year, $3 million. If you're signing players with little cap space do you think they're gonna be anything other than mediocre? Raptors aren't the Lakers or early 2010 Heat where good free agents will sign there for cheap.
                Last edited by A.I; Fri Mar 12, 2021, 04:16 PM.

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                • golden wrote: View Post

                  Nah, I agree with you. Not counting undrafted guys like FVV & TD, Masai's track record signing free agents is absolutely abysmal. Boucher & Bismack might be the best of the sorry lot.
                  You kept FVV & TD out but counted Boucher who was also undrafted? Undrafted players count as free agents as well.

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                  • A.I wrote: View Post

                    You kept FVV & TD out but counted Boucher who was also undrafted? Undrafted players count as free agents as well.
                    I disagree. Maybe by definition sure, but I look at them more as amateur scouting, which Masai and the raps are otherworldly at. You sign them from college, they're more or less 3rd round picks, who are mostly happy to just get an NBA deal.

                    Free agency as far as the guys I listed is pro scouting, recruitment of pro's, and negotiations with millionaires and their agents. Very different ballpark of required tactics.
                    It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

                    Comment


                    • A.I wrote: View Post

                      You kept FVV & TD out but counted Boucher who was also undrafted? Undrafted players count as free agents as well.
                      Yeah I know... I'm making the very arbitrary distinction of calling FVV & TD guys who came directly into our organization from college, whereas Boucher is a guy who had gone through another organization with a chance to stick with them. Probably a better idea to lump Boucher together with FVV & TD, since he went through our 905 development program, because Keon was referring to guys who were signed as FAs who were actually expected to contribute right away, in some fashion, but ended up being duds. Developmental FAs is probably a different category altogether, so you're probably right there.

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                      • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                        I disagree. Maybe by definition sure, but I look at them more as amateur scouting, which Masai and the raps are otherworldly at. You sign them from college, they're more or less 3rd round picks, who are mostly happy to just get an NBA deal.

                        Free agency as far as the guys I listed is pro scouting, recruitment of pro's, and negotiations with millionaires and their agents. Very different ballpark of required tactics.
                        Fair enough. There definitely are differences between undrafted free agents vs. NBA player free agents. Undrafted free agents fall in the middle between drafting and free agency.

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                        • Maybe Im missing something, but whats the problem with our team building? Is it just to say players dont want to come here? Thats probably fair, but also a little unfair because we’ve been so good at development that our best targets are typically internal anyways, who we’ve been good at keeping. In fact more often than not, when a player leaves its on our terms rather than theirs (with one huge exception), a problem most teams dont have. Masai and Webster havent lured a top guy though, thats fair and until they do the narrative will (fairly) be that Toronto cant get free agents.

                          Not a huge cause for concern to me just because Masai other than Carroll and maybe Baynes, all the missed signings are cheap. Hes also been maybe the best at trading for talent and developing internally, and though he doesnt literally do the coaching shows hes still top teir in talent evaluation. Idk I like that we focus more on trading and drafting talent and using free agency as a means to retain and take fliers - correct or not it implies more of a plan.

                          Definitey see Keons point though, we gutted the pipeline for Kawhi, Gasol, Ibaka. Worth it yes, but now paying the price. Is drafting all our own picks for several years with some more fliers in the meantime enough? Idk, but a couple extra picks/prospects could help a lot. I think we are closer to being really good than most here probably do so honestly fine either way on Lowry and even keeping Norm has grown on me. Starting to look more like it depends on the offers out there.

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                          • DogeLover1234 wrote: View Post
                            Maybe Im missing something, but whats the problem with our team building? Is it just to say players dont want to come here? Thats probably fair, but also a little unfair because we’ve been so good at development that our best targets are typically internal anyways, who we’ve been good at keeping. In fact more often than not, when a player leaves its on our terms rather than theirs (with one huge exception), a problem most teams dont have. Masai and Webster havent lured a top guy though, thats fair and until they do the narrative will (fairly) be that Toronto cant get free agents.

                            Not a huge cause for concern to me just because Masai other than Carroll and maybe Baynes, all the missed signings are cheap. Hes also been maybe the best at trading for talent and developing internally, and though he doesnt literally do the coaching shows hes still top teir in talent evaluation. Idk I like that we focus more on trading and drafting talent and using free agency as a means to retain and take fliers - correct or not it implies more of a plan.

                            Definitey see Keons point though, we gutted the pipeline for Kawhi, Gasol, Ibaka. Worth it yes, but now paying the price. Is drafting all our own picks for several years with some more fliers in the meantime enough? Idk, but a couple extra picks/prospects could help a lot. I think we are closer to being really good than most here probably do so honestly fine either way on Lowry and even keeping Norm has grown on me. Starting to look more like it depends on the offers out there.
                            Yes, we are close to being really good, that's why a complete tear down is unfeasible, unlikely, and inefficient. A retool however means resetting what your core is, and finding ways to add to the pipeline in the next couple of years.

                            We can say we're "really good" because we see the potential, but reality right now is we're 9th place in the East. yes the last 3 games have had covid issues but Philly, Miami, BK have all had major covid issues.

                            We need to start being honest with what we are now. We're a .500 team. Sure when everything breaks right and 100% healthy right maybe this team is capable to win 48 games and squeak out a playoff round. But nobody is ever 100% healthy and any injuries now we have no depth guys to step in like we used to. But that's the ceiling of a team that's almost squeezed out all the "internal growth" from the young guys who are now just regular aged guys.

                            And again this is no indictment on the genius of Masai, or the accomplishments of this team, and takes nothing away from the 2019 experience. BUT teams that are going off nostalgia often hang out a little bit too long instead of seeing the writing on the wall. Another example is the Blue Jays after 2016, they hung on too long and were forced to start all over. I would hate to see that happen here and get stuck in a long indefinite stretch of mediocrity. Get Masai some lotto picks to work with, or some kids that are actually worth something to come up. It was a great run.
                            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

                            Comment


                            • I think they should trade Lowry. They can't lose him for nothing, they're losing talent. The roster has two issues right now: the top 10 guy isn't here and the depth is gone. This is the first time the depth has been gone, so I don't totally get setting particular parameters to criticize Masai for MLE signings and $2-$3m signings. He's maintained a deep team with a good talent pipeline his whole tenure until now, which has come as the cost of two moves I have no problem with: trading multiple assets for a short window championship team and losing assets to take a swing at an MVP calibre FA. Those are what you need to do, he did them, here we are.

                              The idea that maybe the Raptors could keep Lowry if they tabled something like 2 yrs, $60m - I don't know what that is from the team perspective. Because some of their depth is gone and the top 10 guy still isn't there. So yeah, you're a pretty competitive middling seed that goes a round or two. Why do that for two more years? Siakam, Fred, Norm, and Boucher are all 26-28 years old. Time for retooling around those guys is now. OG's the only real young talent on the team @ 23, that's a guy you might surround with picks and prospects with a long-term plan. But otherwise? They need to make some things happen that produce their peak results in the next 1-4 seasons.
                              "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

                              Comment


                              • Yeah, I don't think it's that there's anything wrong with the team building approach per se. It is more a combination of vets moving on and the last real talent infusion being the FVV/Siakam/Powell/OG/Boucher run. We got spoiled with that group all coming through in a big way but Boucher came here 3 years ago. Since then, they haven't really hit on anyone and didn't even have firsts in 2018 and 2019. Guys like Davis and Flynn might pan out eventually but they aren't there right now and there just isn't enough depth. It's a lot to ask to replace Leonard, Green, Ibaka and Gasol and then backfill for all the guys who move up, especially when you're winning and picking at #28 or #29 and trying to line up your ammo for 2021.

                                In the meantime, they need to get back to 100% cause there just isn't enough margin for error to win with so many guys out.

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