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Game #36 Atlanta @ Toronto (Tampa) - Thursday March 11, 7:30PM EST

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  • S.R. wrote: View Post
    I think they should trade Lowry. They can't lose him for nothing, they're losing talent. The roster has two issues right now: the top 10 guy isn't here and the depth is gone. This is the first time the depth has been gone, so I don't totally get setting particular parameters to criticize Masai for MLE signings and $2-$3m signings. He's maintained a deep team with a good talent pipeline his whole tenure until now, which has come as the cost of two moves I have no problem with: trading multiple assets for a short window championship team and losing assets to take a swing at an MVP calibre FA. Those are what you need to do, he did them, here we are.

    The idea that maybe the Raptors could keep Lowry if they tabled something like 2 yrs, $60m - I don't know what that is from the team perspective. Because some of their depth is gone and the top 10 guy still isn't there. So yeah, you're a pretty competitive middling seed that goes a round or two. Why do that for two more years? Siakam, Fred, Norm, and Boucher are all 26-28 years old. Time for retooling around those guys is now. OG's the only real young talent on the team @ 23, that's a guy you might surround with picks and prospects with a long-term plan. But otherwise? They need to make some things happen that produce their peak results in the next 1-4 seasons.
    Damn, I was nodding my head in approval until you said:

    "OG's the only real young talent on the team @ 23, that's a guy you might surround with picks and prospects with a long-term plan"

    Now, I'm thinking.... blow it up. Blow it all the way up.

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    • golden wrote: View Post

      Damn, I was nodding my head in approval until you said:

      "OG's the only real young talent on the team @ 23, that's a guy you might surround with picks and prospects with a long-term plan"

      Now, I'm thinking.... blow it up. Blow it all the way up.
      We're 3 pieces away. Couple quality depth/role guys, and a big fish. The big fish is obviously the hard part. But we're basically where we were in 2014 again, when we had a young Derozan, Lowry, JV and Ross as our core. Now its Pascal, Fred, OG and Norm. Masai built that team brick by brick, and he can do it again. Hell Lowry in a very different sense can become the Rudy Gay trade, that kicks it into high gear all over again.
      It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

      Comment


      • Lowry had 9 turnovers? Maybe he doesn't want to traded, lol

        Thus talk about Caroll, gives me horrible flashbacks of just how bad he was for the raptors vs how good he was prior. And then he had the nerve to call out the raptors after how crappy he played for us?

        Comment


        • The fact that we were even in that game with 7 seconds to go is amazing. We are down 3 starters... I was impressed with our effort last night.

          I do agree this team has lost it's quality depth, something that we have been fortunate to have for at least 5, six years. It's cyclical though, Masai traded away depth for a championship and now it's time to rebuild it. I don't think Lowry will be moved but it's honestly the quickest way to get back to the top. A couple more Tolzman picks and a young asset back would head in the right direction.

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          • This is where I push back a little bit. I dont think we need more pieces to potentially make a conference finals. We have 6 guys who I trust to play heavy playoff minutes without getting played off the court. Once everyone got their legs and Nurse commited to a small ball identity we were really good, I just havent seen it enough yet to say lets go. Im not super worried about our record, I just dont think its a great measure of our ranking right now - we are somewhere in the 4 or 5 teams behind Brooklynn. I think that gives us the luxury of not needing to be sellers, but can for the right offer (depending on the covid situation at the deadline).

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            • KeonClark wrote: View Post

              We're 3 pieces away. Couple quality depth/role guys, and a big fish. The big fish is obviously the hard part. But we're basically where we were in 2014 again, when we had a young Derozan, Lowry, JV and Ross as our core. Now its Pascal, Fred, OG and Norm. Masai built that team brick by brick, and he can do it again. Hell Lowry in a very different sense can become the Rudy Gay trade, that kicks it into high gear all over again.
              Trading Lowry for the rumored: Green,Scott, Ferguson, Thybulle, Maxey and a pick would definitely improve our depth.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                Trading Lowry for the rumored: Green,Scott, Ferguson, Thybulle, Maxey and a pick would definitely improve our depth.
                i think that deal is way optimistic and we'd be lucky to get two of the three assets from thybulle, maxey, or pick. it would still improve our depth and i would still do it if lowry is amenable to it.

                Comment


                • chris wrote: View Post

                  i think that deal is way optimistic and we'd be lucky to get two of the three assets from thybulle, maxey, or pick. it would still improve our depth and i would still do it if lowry is amenable to it.
                  Those depth guys are all expiring though, so we’d be right back to filling out the bench in the off-season with OG at 18M and probably paying Powell north of 20M.

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                  • golden wrote: View Post

                    Those depth guys are all expiring though, so we’d be right back to filling out the bench in the off-season with OG at 18M and probably paying Powell north of 20M.
                    oh green/scott/ferguson didn't even cross my mind when you were referring to depth. i assumed you were talking about re-stocking the talent in the development pipeline with thybulle/maxey/FRP that keon was talking about,

                    i was just saying that those three assets are prob too much for a lowry rental, though even two of them could go some way towards addressing depth on this team in the coming seasons.

                    green/scott/ferguson are just salary filler. i mean green in particular might be more useful than some of the guys we're throwing out there this season, but i don't think they'd be doing the deal with the idea in mind to re-sign any of those guys

                    i'd be happy to have two of thybulle/maxey/pick to go with a re-signed norm, plus FVV, pascal, and OG. that's a great mix of young cost-controlled assets with good players on fair contracts

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                    • KeonClark wrote: View Post
                      OK, so you guys are content with the free agency track record. Fair enough.

                      All I know is that in the past, "Lowry, Powell and the bench" win this game by 8. Remember Lowry and the bench? That group could win 48 games in the East! Now, "the bench" is a bunch of G league level guys. Other than Lowry, Powell, Boucher and maybe Bembry, the rest of the guys that played last night will be lucky to be in the league in 2 or 3 years.

                      That's why I'm of the opinion we have to trade Lowry, and came to that conclusion halfway through this season when I saw how much we were "getting" from guys like Terrence Davis and Matt Thomas etc. There's nothing on this roster coming down the pipe. I know a treadmill when I see one. I'm a Vancouver Canucks fan living in Calgary, and while it's different sports, both the Canucks and Flames denied needing a rebuild for far too long and now they're both a mess.

                      We don't need a "rebuild", but we definitely need a retool. Lowry is not getting any younger, and bringing the band back plus adding maybe a 18th overall pick doesn't exactly inspire me when you look at Brooklyn and Philly and Boston and Milwaukee all set up for the next few years.

                      If Lowry can get you a lotto pick, or a blue chipper, you need to add him to this promising(but well short of where we need to go) core of Fred, Pascal, OG and Norm.
                      Agreed - very down to earth, realistic take. This team is 6 deep: Lowry-Fred-Norm-OG-Pascal-Chris. Beyond that is all fluff, most with a high chance of being out of the league in a couple of years like you say. You can't go anywhere without depth.

                      The 6 we have are basically all 28 (except OG & Lowry), so to S.R. 's point, you can't dick around for too long. We gotta decide what we want to prioritize here: team building and proper asset management, or symbolic/sentimental decisions around Lowry (the Groat).

                      If it's the latter and we let Lowry wilt here or walk with nothing in return, there will be a cost. This cost will be added to the cost of the assets we lost on the buildup to the championship (which of course was well worth it), and the cost of the swing-and-miss for Giannis and the great "2021 free agent bonanza".

                      Since the championship we've already bled way too much talent with nothing in return. Yes, it was for a variety of reasons and some of it out of our control, but the net effect is the same regardless: The team is now bare, thin and not even that young. So to me personally we've got to:

                      1. Stop dreaming about free agents or thinking about how the only feather missing in Masai's cap is a FA big fish, and getting distracted by that. To me it doesn't even matter if it's location or just the FO being not able to land one (it's likely a combination of both), but regardless, that's not our forte. Just gotta look at our history on that, like you pointed out very well.

                      2. Get back to our strengths which is trades and draft/scouting/development. Trade Lowry, if there's a viable package out there. Add a young-ish player form that package to the other 5 we have, and develop our picks with real minutes (instead of minutes to older non-scoring/floor shrinking rethreads).

                      Do that and we'll quickly (probably within a season or two), be right back at where we were in 2016-2018, which may not sound great but that's top of the conference, just 1 star away (which you'd get via trade, not just waiting for it to fall on your lap in free agency), to finals territory. But if we pretend we're something we're not, and pretend Lowry is 26 yr old Anthony Davis and you only move if he asks for a trade and said trade must get you 4 firsts and 2 prospects, than we'll be stuck in 2014 for a long time. Not easy decisions ahead (you don't want to move Lowry for peanuts either), but there's a path.



                      Last edited by inthepaint; Sat Mar 13, 2021, 12:29 AM.
                      2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

                      Comment


                      • I'm open to a lowry trade, but is everyone just assuming he'll walk this offseason? Because Lowry with even a 2 year term might be more of an attractive trade piece than lowry as a 2 month rental. I'm not certain, but i dont think philly would have the cap space to sign lowry in the offseason unless they make a move or two or Lowry signs at a discount. A SnT might be a possibility, not just in the philly scenario, but for other contenders as well. I'm just not convinced we have to move Lowry by the deadline to get something in return.

                        As for Norm, he's playing himself into a situation where we have to resign him. Trading him by the deadline would be stupid to me. We certainly wont get a return that really elevates this team presently. I dont see a Norm trade that puts this team into the top tier of the conference, so what would be the point? A draft pick isnt enticing, unless its in the top 10, maybe. But a resigned Norm might:
                        a) turn out to be that offensive threat this team can lean on that pascal hasnt been able to fill or
                        b) be that key piece in a trade that lands a big fish, like demar was.
                        Norm has his flaws I guess, but folks arent really appreciating what he's been doing lately. Hes had an extended run of offensive excellence that stretches back to last season, he really just needs to bring that in the playoffs and hes a no brainer keeper. His defence might not be great, but its not awful either. And if you're scoring with the volume and efficiency that norm has been, there should be some forgiveness for not being a + defender. I mean, folks here get have gotten upset with playing time for guys like davis and thomas, who arent half the player that norm is offensively, and just as bad or worse than norm on the other end. Wheres the norm love, his play hasnt even dropped off over the past few games where we were missing our top 3 defenders, 2 of our top 3 scorers, all 3 of which are starters?

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                        • JawsGT wrote: View Post
                          I'm open to a lowry trade, but is everyone just assuming he'll walk this offseason? Because Lowry with even a 2 year term might be more of an attractive trade piece than lowry as a 2 month rental. I'm not certain, but i dont think philly would have the cap space to sign lowry in the offseason unless they make a move or two or Lowry signs at a discount. A SnT might be a possibility, not just in the philly scenario, but for other contenders as well. I'm just not convinced we have to move Lowry by the deadline to get something in return.

                          As for Norm, he's playing himself into a situation where we have to resign him. Trading him by the deadline would be stupid to me. We certainly wont get a return that really elevates this team presently. I dont see a Norm trade that puts this team into the top tier of the conference, so what would be the point? A draft pick isnt enticing, unless its in the top 10, maybe. But a resigned Norm might:
                          a) turn out to be that offensive threat this team can lean on that pascal hasnt been able to fill or
                          b) be that key piece in a trade that lands a big fish, like demar was.
                          Norm has his flaws I guess, but folks arent really appreciating what he's been doing lately. Hes had an extended run of offensive excellence that stretches back to last season, he really just needs to bring that in the playoffs and hes a no brainer keeper. His defence might not be great, but its not awful either. And if you're scoring with the volume and efficiency that norm has been, there should be some forgiveness for not being a + defender. I mean, folks here get have gotten upset with playing time for guys like davis and thomas, who arent half the player that norm is offensively, and just as bad or worse than norm on the other end. Wheres the norm love, his play hasnt even dropped off over the past few games where we were missing our top 3 defenders, 2 of our top 3 scorers, all 3 of which are starters?
                          I really think Lowry is walking this off season; there are just too many hints. Selling his house, saying he'll retire a Raptor even if it's a one day etc. He gone.... unless we over pay for him which is a concern I'd have so Bobby/Masai can demonstrate they didn't let every piece of the chip team walk for nothing.

                          Trade him for an expiring, young player and pick(s). Offer him a 2 year X 20M dollar new deal and live with whatever his decision is. You sell it as rewarding him for this run and then it was his decision to come back or not and you got the insurance no matter what. That would be smart GM'ing.

                          As for Norm, I'm a converted fan. Sign him, play him, start him.

                          Comment


                          • Well i suppose if you are of the mind he is walking then trading him is the only option. SnT is still a possibility but too much risk there, cant bank on the SnT, no guarantee it gets done.

                            Comment


                            • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                              I really think Lowry is walking this off season; there are just too many hints. Selling his house, saying he'll retire a Raptor even if it's a one day etc. He gone.... unless we over pay for him which is a concern I'd have so Bobby/Masai can demonstrate they didn't let every piece of the chip team walk for nothing.

                              Trade him for an expiring, young player and pick(s). Offer him a 2 year X 20M dollar new deal and live with whatever his decision is. You sell it as rewarding him for this run and then it was his decision to come back or not and you got the insurance no matter what. That would be smart GM'ing.

                              As for Norm, I'm a converted fan. Sign him, play him, start him.
                              You could take that comment in many ways. For example, Masai/Bobby already talked to him about looking to trade him and he knows it, but would like to stay here long term if given the option.

                              Comment


                              • G__Deane wrote: View Post

                                I really think Lowry is walking this off season; there are just too many hints. Selling his house, saying he'll retire a Raptor even if it's a one day etc. He gone.... unless we over pay for him which is a concern I'd have so Bobby/Masai can demonstrate they didn't let every piece of the chip team walk for nothing.

                                Trade him for an expiring, young player and pick(s). Offer him a 2 year X 20M dollar new deal and live with whatever his decision is. You sell it as rewarding him for this run and then it was his decision to come back or not and you got the insurance no matter what. That would be smart GM'ing.

                                As for Norm, I'm a converted fan. Sign him, play him, start him.
                                Yeah Lowry will behave like every other free agent since sliced bread: He will take the best combination of cash and winning situation. He's the best free agent in 2021 (that drives the price up), and the Raps are certainly not in a winning situation in the current stage of the team's cycle. That's the tea leaves.

                                It may not be at this very trade deadline and like others put it, a SnT could maybe work out, but the big picture is this: He's got 2-3 years of elite ball left that could help a contender win OR he could be eating cap space and minutes from younger guys on a team stuck in mud that needs to rejuvenate and develop to win later

                                He's not that far off from Memphis' Marc Gasol on his last two years there, except Lowry already have a chip (but could win another one if he lands on the right spot)

                                2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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