Game 38 Toronto Raptors vs Chicago Bulls - 9:00 PM EST Mar 14/21

[The Claw Reborn]

3-way trade Denver/Toronto/Orlando:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yftaosrf

Denver: Lowry, Clark
Orlando: Harris, Barton, FRP Toronto
Toronto: Vucevic

Denver starting unit: Murray, Lowry, MP Jr, Millsap, Jokic
Toronto starting unit: FVV, Norm, OG, Pascal, Vucevic
Orlando starting unit: Carter Williams, Harris, Barton, Gordon, Bamba/Birch/Aminu

Can try to get a FRP from Denver, but with Kyle being a UFA and probably non-commital, they may not want to do that. Harris sort of sucks, but Barton is good, and can get a FRP for Vuc that could end up being in the 12-17 range this year.

not sure, Orlando would be left with Isaac as their bigman especially Gordon also wanting out...

To me the closest three team deal is Kyle going to the Clippers, Vucecic to Toronto and Zubac and another Clipper player to match salaries plus picks from both Clippers and Toronto to Orlando.

Zubac is the back up C of the Clippers, it all depends how badly they want Kyle to play small ball with Serge and Morris as their bigs

edit: Is Bamba ready or is he two years away from being two years away? I dont see him being a starting C of any NBA team...

[planetmars]

3-way trade Denver/Toronto/Orlando:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yftaosrf

Denver: Lowry, Clark
Orlando: Harris, Barton, FRP Toronto
Toronto: Vucevic

Denver starting unit: Murray, Lowry, MP Jr, Millsap, Jokic
Toronto starting unit: FVV, Norm, OG, Pascal, Vucevic
Orlando starting unit: Carter Williams, Harris, Barton, Gordon, Bamba/Birch/Aminu

Can try to get a FRP from Denver, but with Kyle being a UFA and probably non-commital, they may not want to do that. Harris sort of sucks, but Barton is good, and can get a FRP for Vuc that could end up being in the 12-17 range this year.

[The Claw Reborn]

Would you give up our FRP for him? He's probably gettable but would require at least one FRP, maybe two.

PM, that maybe a deal breaker if its up to Masai.

He stayed away from that deal as the third team to facilitate the move of Harden to BKN. Cleveland gave up a FRP to Houston and a 2nd round pick to BKN to acquire Jarrett Allen and Prince

though we are talking about Vucecic vs a lesser talented player like Allen.

Masai always wanted to have the upperhand on every deal he makes.

He cannot even make up his mind of his future, suspect he wants more what MLSE can give him.

Good chance MLSE would ever rubber stamp any major trade move at this time without Masai’s long term commitment first

[planetmars]

^^^

Vucecic is someone I would go after if ever there is a viable three team trade for Kyle to go to a contender.

I am not sure if Orlando would be so willing to give him up. Gordon may just go first.

Would you give up our FRP for him? He's probably gettable but would require at least one FRP, maybe two.

[The Claw Reborn]

^^^

Vucecic is someone I would go after if ever there is a viable three team trade for Kyle to go to a contender.

I am not sure if Orlando would be so willing to give him up. Gordon may just go first.

[planetmars]

Yeah, I think Nurse's schemes only work with very high IQ defenders, and especially Gasol, who does nothing on offense, preferring to conserve his energy for defense. He's also anchoring the Lakers top ranked defense this year, but Laker fans are not satisfied and want more than just a one-way player. With AD out, that's shifting too much offensive load onto Lebron.

Yeah with Gasol you have to have 4 good offensive producers. Total zero on offense.

So hard to find a good 2-way center. But 1-way defensive bigs are hard to find as well. I can see why Utah gave Gobert all that $$$

[golden]

The scheme is fine if we had a guy that can protect the paint and allow defenders to drive. The kick will happen, but we collapse because we don't have faith in Baynes or Boucher to be able to do anything, and that has been proven a lot this season. We also play really hard, which tires guys out. So when the ball moves around, we lose our intensity and just give up the free open look. Kyle and Norm have too much responsibility on offense that they tire out on defense more than the others. Their guys get wide open looks from 3 usually.

For all of Gasol's faults he was pretty good at telling guys where to go on defense. And if they needed to cover someone or not. Does Baynes talk at all during a game? You need the center to be that voice. A guard like Kyle or Fred can't look behind them when guarding the perimeter.

Yeah, I think Nurse's schemes only work with very high IQ defenders, and especially Gasol, who does nothing on offense, preferring to conserve his energy for defense. He's also anchoring the Lakers top ranked defense this year, but Laker fans are not satisfied and want more than just a one-way player. With AD out, that's shifting too much offensive load onto Lebron.

[planetmars]

Set aside that we are down 3 starters...

but this team has been atrocious defending the three all season

Raptors are the 7th worse team.

it seems every scrubs that are out there would circle their calendars when they play the Raptors because they can just station themselves in the corner, spot up and nail an open three then once in a while, these guys would have career nights vs. the Raptors

Nick Nurse defensive schemes favors defending the middle of the lane. That has been his Achilles.

the word is out against St. Nick

The scheme is fine if we had a guy that can protect the paint and allow defenders to drive. The kick will happen, but we collapse because we don't have faith in Baynes or Boucher to be able to do anything, and that has been proven a lot this season. We also play really hard, which tires guys out. So when the ball moves around, we lose our intensity and just give up the free open look. Kyle and Norm have too much responsibility on offense that they tire out on defense more than the others. Their guys get wide open looks from 3 usually.

For all of Gasol's faults he was pretty good at telling guys where to go on defense. And if they needed to cover someone or not. Does Baynes talk at all during a game? You need the center to be that voice. A guard like Kyle or Fred can't look behind them when guarding the perimeter.

[The Claw Reborn]

Set aside that we are down 3 starters...

but this team has been atrocious defending the three all season

Raptors are the 7th worse team.

it seems every scrubs that are out there would circle their calendars when they play the Raptors because they can just station themselves in the corner, spot up and nail an open three then once in a while, these guys would have career nights vs. the Raptors

Nick Nurse defensive schemes favors defending the middle of the lane. That has been his Achilles.

the word is out against St. Nick

[slaw]

Actually, you bring up a good point about Baynes and Len. Why are they performing exponentially worse here than any other team they've played for in the past? Baynes had, arguably, his best year last year. This year, he dropped off a cliff.... why? Len is now an advance stats DPOY candidate with the Wizards, but looked clueless here. Why?

No idea what Len's advanced defensive stats are but he's playing regular minutes one game out of 4 or 5 on a terrible team. Like the last 15 games he has 4 DNPs and has played double-digit minutes only 5 times. Reality is that Boucher is a much better player and took those minutes.

As for Baynes, I think I was misled by the aggregate numbers last year. The reality was that he was out a lot (only played 42 games) and basically exactly what he is right now after a terrific start. Other than the fact he was taking and making a lot more threes on year in PHX, there likely isn't any real difference from 2014 until now...

[Yuri Gagarin]

golden 😂 missed last night. Watched some dating show instead. Its that bad

[golden]

Things started going wrong at the end of the bubble. Just look at the wins and losses. What changed? C position certainly but I think it has tondo with nick dropping the bench squad. He used to full on replace the entire starters with the second unit. Second unit played a lot together and became familiar with each other. They took pride in the opportunity given. Since then nurse shortened the bench and first guy in would be stanley. Now stanley and bembry. Bench used to hold the fort or increase the lead. They were energetic and it was contagious and carried over when starters came back in. Now its a mess. Bench dont know their rolls and when they’re given a chance its with some wack lineup. Familiarity is key.

Speaking of roles & familiarity, there was a weird substitution pattern last night in the first quarter where TD & Stanley started the game, and then both got subbed out after only 2+ minutes for Watson & Bembry. At first it looked like a quick hook and a punishment, but then they both get subbed back in the same quarter with 5 minutes left. That was confusing, but pretty normal for how the bench is managed these days.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Things started going wrong at the end of the bubble. Just look at the wins and losses. What changed? C position certainly but I think it has tondo with nick dropping the bench squad. He used to full on replace the entire starters with the second unit. Second unit played a lot together and became familiar with each other. They took pride in the opportunity given. Since then nurse shortened the bench and first guy in would be stanley. Now stanley and bembry. Bench used to hold the fort or increase the lead. They were energetic and it was contagious and carried over when starters came back in. Now its a mess. Bench dont know their rolls and when they’re given a chance its with some wack lineup. Familiarity is key.

[DanH]

I mean, these games DID tell us we have very poor depth after the top 6 or 7 guys. It was a chance to give run to a handful of guys that did absolutely nothing win. Granted. most teams have these same issues once you get down to 9, 10,11 in the lineup, it's just the Raptors have been spoiled in the past where any group of 8 guys from the top 15 could seemingly step in and make any game competitive

I don't know that that's true. Usually we would have 2 of our best 3 available in games like that. Rarely would we be looking at 3 of our top 4 being out. Never mind for such a long stretch. Heck, we had two nailbiters out of the 5 losses, one to a solid team in Boston, that would be viewed as huge overachievements for our much reduced squad if the coin landed the other way and they were one-offs like our shorthanded games have often been.

The main thing is just how many of our top guys are missing. Any team in the league would end up in a stretch like this in the same situation, except maybe the very best teams assuming their top 5 superstar is one of the healthy players.

[golden]

Exactly. This group is the kind of group that you put at the end of the bench and hope that you might find one guy who can surprise you with helpful spot minutes. That's who they are supposed to be. That's who they were signed to be.

The COVID decimation of our lineup combined with the double kick to the nuts of Baynes and Len forced us to try and pretend these guys are more than what they are. In a regular year, we'd be talking about Bembry's promising 5 minutes in garbage time and Yuta's play down in the G-league. I'm reading nothing into this asterisk season. Certainly not firing one of the best coaches in the NBA.

Actually, you bring up a good point about Baynes and Len. Why are they performing exponentially worse here than any other team they've played for in the past? Baynes had, arguably, his best year last year. This year, he dropped off a cliff.... why? Len is now an advance stats DPOY candidate with the Wizards, but looked clueless here. Why?