Trade Market is God Awful - One Piece Away

[Shirokin]

Yup

This thread is about getting to a contender status.

Another all-star is the minimum I think......and another coach too.

Such as?

[Mediumcore]

First bold: I know you didn't say he's dominant, I was just pointing out he isn't a stand-out post player. He has some moves, but he's a backup level scorer. The thing that makes him arguably starter material is his D.

Second bold: Maybe it's because he doesn't have the talent to be a featured offensive player. He never scored as well as Boozer, nor did he pass as well as either he or Noah. However he's consistently posted higher USG% than Amir because he is a "featured option" off the bench for them, with less efficiency. I don't see how that's good.

Scoring option quality is relative to roster. Who do you want to take touches away from to get Taj some post touches? He'd still be the 4th/5th option on our starting unit, but less efficient than Amir, who you pointed out finishes well in all the random situations he finds himself in as that lesser option, including as a shooter where Taj isn't very good. And yeah, he's not a great passer...He doesn't draw fouls particularly well...I don't see what he does to really help the team offensively compared to where they are now.

As for D, that's pretty difficult to compare. Taj was solid defensively in his rookie year before Thibs was hired in Chi-town. I don't think it's the system making him look good, and I'm not sure how much better/worse Amir would look in that system. But again, if there's any area where he could add value it's there, not offensively, in my opinion.

This reminds me of the debate over who was a better PF, Amir or Amare, which Buddahfan use to bring up.

Sure, Amir is more efficient, but what he gives you on offense is more limited than what Taj gives you and thus he is more efficient in his limitatons. Taj is by no means vastly ahead of Amir on offense, but he is better at that end in what he gives you. I agree they are both 4th or 5th scoring options and it's their D that makes them both options as starters. Keep in mind if Boozer was on the Raptors, Amir would be coming off the bench too.

[mcHAPPY]

This reminds me of the debate over who was a better PF, Amir or Amare, which Buddahfan use to bring up.

Sure, Amir is more efficient, but what he gives you on offense is more limited than what Taj gives you and thus he is more efficient in his limitatons. Taj is by no means vastly ahead of Amir on offense, but he is better at that end in what he gives you. I agree they are both 4th or 5th scoring options and it's their D that makes them both options as starters. Keep in mind if Boozer was on the Raptors, Amir would be coming off the bench too.

I always said, which eventually caused Buddahfan to have an aneurysm and leave here, that Amir is a FANTASTIC first big off the bench. Still feel that way. I love everything about him I just don't think he is a a legit starter unless you're team has 1 or 2 legit franchise superstars. He'd be awesome in OKC or Cleveland, no doubt.

[white men can't jump]

This reminds me of the debate over who was a better PF, Amir or Amare, which Buddahfan use to bring up.

Sure, Amir is more efficient, but what he gives you on offense is more limited than what Taj gives you and thus he is more efficient in his limitatons. Taj is by no means vastly ahead of Amir on offense, but he is better at that end in what he gives you. I agree they are both 4th or 5th scoring options and it's their D that makes them both options as starters. Keep in mind if Boozer was on the Raptors, Amir would be coming off the bench too.

But again I come back to fit, and what kind of scoring option do you want? Taj would clearly start ahead of 2Pat for the same reason Amir does: defence. However, Taj doesn't fit at all into a scheme where he's an off-the-ball, 4th/5th option. He needs to get touches in the post. He doesn't pass out of the post well. He isn't a great shooter, and isn't as good a finisher as Amir. Sure, he can beat his man one-on-one more often, but he still doesn't do that at a level that would make him a big difference maker offensively.

Again, that's why he fits on the bench. There, he doesn't take shots away from better scoring options. But we have 2Pat on the bench as an excellent scoring weapon, who may be worse in the post, but brings shooting ability at the 4 that we don't get from anybody else. Amir on the other hand, fits well either as a glue-guy starting or off the bench. He's more versatile, and fits better into a system that already has multiple offensive weapons....I mean, I asked before, who do you want to take touches away from to give Taj shots? Lowry? DeMar? Jonas? Lou? Ross? Greivis? Amir gets his without compromising anyone else's game. I'd much prefer all these guys being able to get their shots than Taj being an average black hole post player on the starting unit.

I think Taj is a great defensive player, and I think he's a good 2-way player in general, but he's not a good fit to start at PF for Toronto, and I think he's a worse fit off the bench than Patterson as well as the team is currently constructed. He's a lateral move at best. He's not the answer, and shouldn't even be in a discussion that's included guys like Horford and Millsap.

[white men can't jump]

I always said, which eventually caused Buddahfan to have an aneurysm and leave here, that Amir is a FANTASTIC first big off the bench. Still feel that way. I love everything about him I just don't think he is a a legit starter unless you're team has 1 or 2 legit franchise superstars. He'd be awesome in OKC or Cleveland, no doubt.

But Taj is the same thing, and then it all gets into fit, and for Toronto, I can't envision Taj in any way being a better fit than Amir. Maybe health-wise, but that's a different angle entirely.

[MACK11]

I always said, which eventually caused Buddahfan to have an aneurysm and leave here, that Amir is a FANTASTIC first big off the bench. Still feel that way. I love everything about him I just don't think he is a a legit starter unless you're team has 1 or 2 legit franchise superstars. He'd be awesome in OKC or Cleveland, no doubt.

A team like this would be Ideal for Amir

PG- Lowry
SG- DeRozan
SF- Ross
PF- Horford
C- Valanciunas

Patterson, Vasquez, Amir, JJ, Lou All of them off the bench

[Mediumcore]

But again I come back to fit, and what kind of scoring option do you want? Taj would clearly start ahead of 2Pat for the same reason Amir does: defence. However, Taj doesn't fit at all into a scheme where he's an off-the-ball, 4th/5th option. He needs to get touches in the post. He doesn't pass out of the post well. He isn't a great shooter, and isn't as good a finisher as Amir. Sure, he can beat his man one-on-one more often, but he still doesn't do that at a level that would make him a big difference maker offensively.

Again, that's why he fits on the bench. There, he doesn't take shots away from better scoring options. But we have 2Pat on the bench as an excellent scoring weapon, who may be worse in the post, but brings shooting ability at the 4 that we don't get from anybody else. Amir on the other hand, fits well either as a glue-guy starting or off the bench. He's more versatile, and fits better into a system that already has multiple offensive weapons....I mean, I asked before, who do you want to take touches away from to give Taj shots? Lowry? DeMar? Jonas? Lou? Ross? Greivis? Amir gets his without compromising anyone else's game. I'd much prefer all these guys being able to get their shots than Taj being an average black hole post player on the starting unit.

I think Taj is a great defensive player, and I think he's a good 2-way player in general, but he's not a good fit to start at PF for Toronto, and I think he's a worse fit off the bench than Patterson as well as the team is currently constructed. He's a lateral move at best. He's not the answer, and shouldn't even be in a discussion that's included guys like Horford and Millsap.

I think you're discounting what Taj does. He might not be the passer Noah is, but that's like saying he may not be the scorer Rose is. Those guys are elite players. I think Taj would fit well on Toronto, and I see no problem with giving him a couple of of shots from the guy's you mentioned (all perimeter players except JV). Why not diversify the way we score the ball? Why do you want scoring to be exclusive to perimeter players? Not like DD's fg% is scorching hot.

[Primer]

To me, you do:

To ATL:
Amir
Ross
NYK 2016 1st
2015 1st

To TOR:
Horford
Carroll

I think that is what it takes to win the bidding for him. And I couldn't care less about going into the tax - to acquire a player like Horford that's not an issue.

I'm an Atlanta fan as well as Raps fan, having lived in Atlanta for 7 years, and this is the only remotely close to realistic trade for Horford presented in this entire thread. Most are laughably bad. Like we'd have to catch Ferry in the middle of a psychedelic mushroom binge for him to not laugh us out of the room.

Amir/Ross and a 1st is an absolutely pathetic return for Horford. Not gonna happen in a billion years. Adding in Hansbrough or other garbage does not sweeten the deal for Atlanta.

Also, forcing Atlanta to throw in Carroll doesn't make sense on their end either. You want them to ditch their starting SF and starting C for a bench big in Amir, an underwhelming prospect in Ross, and a bad 1st round pick (I fully expect us to be 50 wins-ish). Not gonna happen. I'd take Carroll over Ross right now and until Ross shows me more. Carroll is an elite defender at the wing (not promise like Ross, but actually elite), and he can the open 3.

For starters, I don't see Atlanta trading Horford at all. I think they're going to be one of the best teams in the East this year, top 3 for sure. They're just as close to getting over the hump as us, if not closer. A rebuild in the bandwagon fan town of Atlanta would be the new owners worst fucking nightmare. They are absolutely not going to blow that team up. They barely make money as it is, and a rebuild could see the team being forced to move somewhere else. Atlanta fans are the worst, and I say that as a long time Atlanta fan. You have to give them a winning product or no one will show up for games (I got season tickets in 2007 for $200, no joke).

Far more likely is Atlanta uses their cap space in the offseason to sign someone to take them over the top. They'll have decent cap space, and with Horford and Payne, Millsap will be somewhat expendable if they wanna use that money elsewhere.

For Toronto to get Horford it would probably take Bruno, Ross, two 1sts, and expirings. We don't even have what they covet, which is a true center (unless we wanna deal JV), or a complete SF (that's our need too). We could probably deal Derozan for Horford, but where does that get us? I just don't see it guys. Trying to sign Millsap in the offseason is by far the most realistic way to improve PF.

[mcHAPPY]

A team like this would be Ideal for Amir

PG- Lowry
SG- DeRozan
SF- Ross
PF- Horford
C- Valanciunas

Patterson, Vasquez, Amir, JJ, Lou All of them off the bench

That is about as close to porn as you can get on RR.

Throw Bruno in there and I'd blush.

[mcHAPPY]

I'm an Atlanta fan as well as Raps fan, having lived in Atlanta for 7 years, and this is the only remotely close to realistic trade for Horford presented in this entire thread. Most are laughably bad. Like we'd have to catch Ferry in the middle of a psychedelic mushroom binge for him to not laugh us out of the room.

Amir/Ross and a 1st is an absolutely pathetic return for Horford. Not gonna happen in a billion years. Adding in Hansbrough or other garbage does not sweeten the deal for Atlanta.

Also, forcing Atlanta to throw in Carroll doesn't make sense on their end either. You want them to ditch their starting SF and starting C for a bench big in Amir, an underwhelming prospect in Ross, and a bad 1st round pick (I fully expect us to be 50 wins-ish). Not gonna happen. I'd take Carroll over Ross right now and until Ross shows me more. Carroll is an elite defender at the wing (not promise like Ross, but actually elite), and he can the open 3.

For starters, I don't see Atlanta trading Horford at all. I think they're going to be one of the best teams in the East this year, top 3 for sure. They're just as close to getting over the hump as us, if not closer. A rebuild in the bandwagon fan town of Atlanta would be the new owners worst fucking nightmare. They are absolutely not going to blow that team up. They barely make money as it is, and a rebuild could see the team being forced to move somewhere else. Atlanta fans are the worst, and I say that as a long time Atlanta fan. You have to give them a winning product or no one will show up for games (I got season tickets in 2007 for $200, no joke).

Far more likely is Atlanta uses their cap space in the offseason to sign someone to take them over the top. They'll have decent cap space, and with Horford and Payne, Millsap will be somewhat expendable if they wanna use that money elsewhere.

For Toronto to get Horford it would probably take Bruno, Ross, two 1sts, and expirings. We don't even have what they covet, which is a true center (unless we wanna deal JV), or a complete SF (that's our need too). We could probably deal Derozan for Horford, but where does that get us? I just don't see it guys. Trying to sign Millsap in the offseason is by far the most realistic way to improve PF.

I agree with all of this.

The only way I disagree is if Horford tells organization he wants out or fully intends to shop around as an UFA.


What are your thoughts on the PF/C issue with Horford? He says it is a non-issue now with him and Millsap interchangeable but for a long time it was an issue for him - and I recall his father making comments about the need to play wiht a true C to ensure his career isn't shortened due to the wear and tear.

[mcHAPPY]

I'm an Atlanta fan as well as Raps fan, having lived in Atlanta for 7 years, and this is the only remotely close to realistic trade for Horford presented in this entire thread. Most are laughably bad. Like we'd have to catch Ferry in the middle of a psychedelic mushroom binge for him to not laugh us out of the room.

Amir/Ross and a 1st is an absolutely pathetic return for Horford. Not gonna happen in a billion years. Adding in Hansbrough or other garbage does not sweeten the deal for Atlanta.

Also, forcing Atlanta to throw in Carroll doesn't make sense on their end either. You want them to ditch their starting SF and starting C for a bench big in Amir, an underwhelming prospect in Ross, and a bad 1st round pick (I fully expect us to be 50 wins-ish). Not gonna happen. I'd take Carroll over Ross right now and until Ross shows me more. Carroll is an elite defender at the wing (not promise like Ross, but actually elite), and he can the open 3.

For starters, I don't see Atlanta trading Horford at all. I think they're going to be one of the best teams in the East this year, top 3 for sure. They're just as close to getting over the hump as us, if not closer. A rebuild in the bandwagon fan town of Atlanta would be the new owners worst fucking nightmare. They are absolutely not going to blow that team up. They barely make money as it is, and a rebuild could see the team being forced to move somewhere else. Atlanta fans are the worst, and I say that as a long time Atlanta fan. You have to give them a winning product or no one will show up for games (I got season tickets in 2007 for $200, no joke).

Far more likely is Atlanta uses their cap space in the offseason to sign someone to take them over the top. They'll have decent cap space, and with Horford and Payne, Millsap will be somewhat expendable if they wanna use that money elsewhere.

For Toronto to get Horford it would probably take Bruno, Ross, two 1sts, and expirings. We don't even have what they covet, which is a true center (unless we wanna deal JV), or a complete SF (that's our need too). We could probably deal Derozan for Horford, but where does that get us? I just don't see it guys. Trying to sign Millsap in the offseason is by far the most realistic way to improve PF.

I agree with all of this. NIce to get a reality check from time to time.

The only way I disagree is if Horford tells organization he wants out or fully intends to shop around as an UFA..... or he isn't fully recovered following his pec injuries.


What are your thoughts on the PF/C issue with Horford? He says it is a non-issue now with him and Millsap interchangeable but for a long time it was an issue for him - and I recall his father making comments about the need to play wiht a true C to ensure his career isn't shortened due to the wear and tear.

[white men can't jump]

I think you're discounting what Taj does. He might not be the passer Noah is, but that's like saying he may not be the scorer Rose is. Those guys are elite players. I think Taj would fit well on Toronto, and I see no problem with giving him a couple of of shots from the guy's you mentioned (all perimeter players except JV). Why not diversify the way we score the ball? Why do you want scoring to be exclusive to perimeter players? Not like DD's fg% is scorching hot.

Because I think you're vastly overrating Taj's scoring ability.

First off, it's not that he's not as good a passer as Noah...it's that he's not a good passer, period. Or rather, he's a player who doesn't do a good job moving the ball. He isn't a very willing passer, and is prone to taking tough shots in iso instead of passing the ball.

In addition, he's not that good a post player. He's not bad, but he's not physically imposing, and if he can't get by his matchup, he's not a good finisher beyond 3-4 ft. So he's more limited here than I think you give him credit for. The fact the he's also not the best passer (or rather willing passer) also means that even if he gets doubled, he's not likely to find the easier opportunity by swinging the ball back out.

If you want to diversify scoring, he's not the answer in my opinion. I want more scoring inside, but I want better flow on O. In order to utilize a variety of weapons, you have to keep the ball moving and run different types of sets. In this type of system, Amir fits great, again, because he can get his buckets without taking away from anyone, and without stopping the ball, while also being more versatile in the types of plays in which he can be effective. Taj's addition would make it harder to avoid stretches of "my turn, your turn" basketball, which we all know is not a good thing. I think your intent would be to diversify scoring, but the result would be more iso ball, meaning in essence, you could easily diminish the diversity in your offensive attack because plays are more predictable and involve less guys. You know that old practice drill where all 5 guys have to touch the ball before a shot goes up? Well that's the best way to diversify your O, by having a system where on any play any player can be a threat to score, and we'd be even worse in that respect than we already are.

If you want a legit big man who can score down low and be a starter caliber player who's a clear upgrade on Amir, we're talking fringe all-stars or better. That's why people have discussed names like Horford, Millsap and even David West at times. I just don't see Taj being a better fit than Amir in really any way, given our current roster.

In the meantime if you want more post-ups, they should come from Jonas and DeMar, who are both solid options.
-> And as a random sidenote, does anyone else feel like Vasquez should put in lots of work to improve his post game? I mean, he's 6'6'' and plays mostly at PG. Gotta exploit those shorter players.

[white men can't jump]

I agree with all of this. NIce to get a reality check from time to time.

The only way I disagree is if Horford tells organization he wants out or fully intends to shop around as an UFA..... or he isn't fully recovered following his pec injuries.


What are your thoughts on the PF/C issue with Horford? He says it is a non-issue now with him and Millsap interchangeable but for a long time it was an issue for him - and I recall his father making comments about the need to play wiht a true C to ensure his career isn't shortened due to the wear and tear.

I would also throw in the potential impact of Millsap's decision on what the team does. Millsap is going to be looking for the biggest pay-day in his career, and it's not hard to think that could come from a team other than Atlanta. If ownership/management know they could lose him (especially if they cheap out, which has been a problem in Atlanta before), one of their top 3 players, it could totally change the way they pursue building long-term, especially with Horford slated to become a free agent the following year.

[Primer]

I agree with all of this. NIce to get a reality check from time to time.

The only way I disagree is if Horford tells organization he wants out or fully intends to shop around as an UFA..... or he isn't fully recovered following his pec injuries.


What are your thoughts on the PF/C issue with Horford? He says it is a non-issue now with him and Millsap interchangeable but for a long time it was an issue for him - and I recall his father making comments about the need to play wiht a true C to ensure his career isn't shortened due to the wear and tear.

I do think Horford would prefer playing PF in a traditional offense, but with the offense Atlanta runs, his quotes about there being no difference between PF and C make sense. They also have basiaclly no difference between the wing positions. Atlanta has Pero Antic and Brand to throw at big bodies centers so they can move Al to PF in those lineups (and even move Millsap to SF in some instances).

If Horford wants out and to shop around as an UFA, then Toronto should stay the hell away. I highly doubt he'd look at Toronto as a more desirable destination than Atlanta. So we'd end up trading away assets just to see him walk for nothing. I think Atlanta will be in a bit of a bind trying to bring Millsap back (I think drafting Payne was because of this), which makes him much more attainable than Horford, and we'd know for sure we'd have him for 4-5 years if we sign him outright. Doesn't make sense to trade for either of these guys this season when they're so close to free agency. Since Millsap was willing to sign with Atlanta as a UFA, he'd probably be willing to sign with Toronto (neither are premier markets, but also not shit markets), especially if we continue to play like last year. If I were Masai, I'd gear up to make a nice offer to Millsap in the offseason, and also prepare to lose Amir in the process. With PPat signed long term as the backup PF, Amir doesn't have a place on the team if we bring in a starting PF. I know many people are emotionally attached to Amir and that'd be a tough pill to swallow, but it's getting to the point where we either upgrade PF (let Amir go), or don't (keep Amir and don't bring in another PF). It wouldn't make sense money/roster wise to have all three of Millsap, Amir, and PPat.

[Cody73]

How about just getting Carroll then?????? We all agree that SF is our main weak spot.