Everything Gary Trent Jr.

[bertarapsfan]

I don't disagree with Pascal at all on those counts.

I

lol what? You just did

"So, like, there's just not much there that identifies Gary as particularly effective creating his own shot. If he was so good at it, it would show up in one of these numbers"

[LJ2]

Stick to the basics guys. Gary is 3-4 years away from his prime and is tearing it up all in the flow of the offense. All parts of his game will improve including his efficiency.

[DanH]

lol what? You just did

"So, like, there's just not much there that identifies Gary as particularly effective creating his own shot. If he was so good at it, it would show up in one of these numbers"

What did Pascal say that I disagreed with? Pascal said that Gary takes tough shots, and can hit them, and that it helps that he can take tough shots and hit them. All of that is true, and none of it contradicts my points about his efficiency in that situation and whether he should be the primary scorer in crunch time.

[MixxAOR]

Gary is younger than Flynn

[bertarapsfan]

What did Pascal say that I disagreed with? Pascal said that Gary takes tough shots, and can hit them, and that it helps that he can take tough shots and hit them. All of that is true, and none of it contradicts my points about his efficiency in that situation and whether he should be the primary scorer in crunch time.

Pascal said its great cause you can get Gary open but most of the time he gets his shots himself..

You can go back and read your post. Multiple time you your numbers don't show that Gary can't get clean looks. That he's not effective at getting his shot off.

It is what it is, what i see and your numbers don't match up, don't think we are going to agree on this one. Its fine, we will just have to wait and see if Nick gives him chances late in game to prove his shot making ability.

One thing i ask it take a look at Gary over the next few games and notice how many times he drives stops in the mid range and side steps or jabs and the 3 point line before side stepping into a jumper. I think you will be surprised at how often he is getting himself good looks.

[The Claw Reborn]

Funny crunching numbers to distract the good things that Trent is showing

[DanH]

Pascal said its great cause you can get Gary open but most of the time he gets his shots himself..

You can go back and read your post. Multiple time you your numbers don't show that Gary can't get clean looks. That he's not effective at getting his shot off.

It is what it is, what i see and your numbers don't match up, don't think we are going to agree on this one. Its fine, we will just have to wait and see if Nick gives him chances late in game to prove his shot making ability.

One thing i ask it take a look at Gary over the next few games and notice how many times he drives stops in the mid range and side steps or jabs and the 3 point line before side stepping into a jumper. I think you will be surprised at how often he is getting himself good looks.

My post never once said Gary couldn't get clean looks off. I said he misses those shots just as much as Pascal and Fred miss their shots, so there isn't much value in the looks being clean.

I will say, Gary looked real good on the catch and shoot in the clutch in this game. Which, as we've noted, is absolutely no surprise, been killing it in that role all year.

[golden]

From Zach Lowe.....

6. Gary Trent Jr. has "it"

Hypothesis: Trent leads all non-Lance Stephenson players in bravado. Even as a deep bench guy with the Portland Trail Blazers, Trent carried himself as if he were the best player on the floor -- a sneering gunslinger, with a smooth, old-school midrange game.

Such self-belief in an untested role player can grate on teammates, but Trent backed it up. He could score one-on-one, even though he's not a blowaway athlete; Trent rarely gets to the basket. He is tough -- willing to body up bigger guys on defense, with a knack for deflections and anticipatory rotations.

He earned a starting role in Portland, and has emerged as an indispensable shot-maker for a weirdo Toronto Raptors team in need of his prolific jump-shooting.

Trent is on the run of his life as the Raps -- 1.5 games out of that coveted No. 6 slot -- crawl up the East standings. He has cracked 30 points in five of six games on 48% shooting. He is raining fire from deep, and staggering fools with all manner of midrange filth.

The Raps have scored about 1.2 points per possession when Trent shoots out of an isolation, or passes to a teammate who launches -- third among 137 players who have recorded at least 50 isolations, per Second Spectrum. (Ahead of him: Eric Gordon and the inexplicable Nikola Jokic.)

Trent has bent the math in his favor by turning lots of pull-up 2s into 3s. He has a calm pump fake/side step combination as defenders fly by, and he loves toying with big guys on switches until he has space for his step-back:


That jab step works because John Collins has to pressure Trent -- making him prime prey for a blow-by; Collins stumbles at one flinch. Trent can probably leverage that in-your-jersey pressure into more drive-and-kick actions; he has improved as a passer.

He is running more pick-and-rolls than ever, and those plays generate a lot of these mismatch switches.

Trent could hit free agency again after next season; the Raptors may regret not signing him to a longer deal -- if they had such an option.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/ins...ng-joel-embiid

[Yuri Gagarin]

Stats are yesterday. You can look at trent compared to a player at the end of last year and say well trents numbers dont really say hes better - yet this year they are. Thats a fun part of this game predicting the changes before they happen and a big part of mgmt and coaches job

we can say give it to gary more in clutch situations. Just because his numbers are equal or less to fred or pascal its not a guarantee it will still be the case. If you want to play it safe ok past numbers are a fair indicator but thats no fun

Dan thought trent deserved 10-15 a yr. then 12-18. Then said raps wudda pounced on signing him 18 or moderately more for more yrs if they cudda. Why the change? Coz the stats changed

[inthepaint]

Stats are yesterday. You can look at trent compared to a player at the end of last year and say well trents numbers dont really say hes better - yet this year they are. Thats a fun part of this game predicting the changes before they happen and a big part of mgmt and coaches job

we can say give it to gary more in clutch situations. Just because his numbers are equal or less to fred or pascal its not a guarantee it will still be the case. If you want to play it safe ok past numbers are a fair indicator but thats no fun

Dan thought trent deserved 10-15 a yr. then 12-18. Then said raps wudda pounced on signing him 18 or moderately more for more yrs if they cudda. Why the change? Coz the stats changed

Yeah that's an underrated point. Numbers are a good predictor of what the player has been up to that point, but the game is dynamic, coaches and players gotta be in tune to what's happening in the moment, present situation of the game or playoff series, current matchups, current frame of mind of the player and a bunch other intangible factors not captured by prior box scores to make decisions.

it's kinda like when Gasol was struggling in that boston series, some us calling for more minutes for other players instead of him, others were like "No, wait, look at Gasol's numbers on this large sample of the past 18 months, he's really good!" Meanwhile the guy is washing up before our eyes, two steps slower defensively, and completely unaware of where the basket was on the offensive end. Then he goes to the Lakers on a minimum, aggravate the fans there too, then goes to Europe. I mean, it pained me to see, the guy was a champion here (there's certainly no chip without him), had an amazing run (therefore great numbers on aggregate), but the realities of the game in that matchup that moment, in that series, were different. Stuff that doesn't get captured too well by metrics/stats.

The other instance of that comes to mind is when Lowry had a zero-point game vs Milwaukee a couple of years ago. It was a key matchup at the time, both teams at the top of the conference, big rivalry. He lays an egg, everyone is pissed/disappointed (Lowry himself included), but some posters were like "what do you mean? Lowry had a great game, look at the other numbers". Didn't matter. Lowry himself came out after to say he had a bad game and there was no excuse - this was a key matchup, the dynamics of the standings, locker room morale/confidence, and other non-box score things called for a game in which the team leader had more than zero points. That's it. The other numbers on that game didn't matter much in that context.

MVP thread starter Jclaw on this next game thread pondered if Trent's clutch OT basket last game was worth 17pts. Well, I'd say not quite, but I get his point. Stats will say that was a mere open 3 (or maybe call it a clutch 3 since it was in OT), but the timeliness of that bucket, the cold bloodness, the importance of it not just in that game but as a key part of a winning streak against elite teams, is not truly captured by metrics, regardless of how advanced they are.

[DanH]

Stats are yesterday. You can look at trent compared to a player at the end of last year and say well trents numbers dont really say hes better - yet this year they are. Thats a fun part of this game predicting the changes before they happen and a big part of mgmt and coaches job

we can say give it to gary more in clutch situations. Just because his numbers are equal or less to fred or pascal its not a guarantee it will still be the case. If you want to play it safe ok past numbers are a fair indicator but thats no fun

Dan thought trent deserved 10-15 a yr. then 12-18. Then said raps wudda pounced on signing him 18 or moderately more for more yrs if they cudda. Why the change? Coz the stats changed

My position on what the Raps would offer has nothing to do with his stats or my assessment of him as a player.

It had to do with what his market would be. If the Raptors were willing to give him 17M a year for two years plus a player option, OF COURSE they would do it for more term. It goes almost without saying (I'd have said it went without saying but this forum keeps proving me wrong on that front).

Like even if the ideal length was 3 years, they likely lock him in with no option if they can. But I'm sure his price was much higher to lock in the third year.

[DanH]

Yeah that's an underrated point. Numbers are a good predictor of what the player has been up to that point, but the game is dynamic, coaches and players gotta be in tune to what's happening in the moment, present situation of the game or playoff series, current matchups, current frame of mind of the player and a bunch other intangible factors not captured by prior box scores to make decisions.

it's kinda like when Gasol was struggling in that boston series, some us calling for more minutes for other players instead of him, others were like "No, wait, look at Gasol's numbers on this large sample of the past 18 months, he's really good!" Meanwhile the guy is washing up before our eyes, two steps slower defensively, and completely unaware of where the basket was on the offensive end. Then he goes to the Lakers on a minimum, aggravate the fans there too, then goes to Europe. I mean, it pained me to see, the guy was a champion here (there's certainly no chip without him), had an amazing run (therefore great numbers on aggregate), but the realities of the game in that matchup that moment, in that series, were different. Stuff that doesn't get captured too well by metrics/stats.

The other instance of that comes to mind is when Lowry had a zero-point game vs Milwaukee a couple of years ago. It was a key matchup at the time, both teams at the top of the conference, big rivalry. He lays an egg, everyone is pissed/disappointed (Lowry himself included), but some posters were like "what do you mean? Lowry had a great game, look at the other numbers". Didn't matter. Lowry himself came out after to say he had a bad game and there was no excuse - this was a key matchup, the dynamics of the standings, locker room morale/confidence, and other non-box score things called for a game in which the team leader had more than zero points. That's it. The other numbers on that game didn't matter much in that context.

MVP thread starter Jclaw on this next game thread pondered if Trent's clutch OT basket last game was worth 17pts. Well, I'd say not quite, but I get his point. Stats will say that was a mere open 3 (or maybe call it a clutch 3 since it was in OT), but the timeliness of that bucket, the cold bloodness, the importance of it not just in that game but as a key part of a winning streak against elite teams, is not truly captured by metrics, regardless of how advanced they are.

There are win probability added stats that capture stuff like that, but they generally do a very, very poor job of projecting to the future. Like, way worse than most other stats, which usually have some level of predictiveness (or quickly get tossed aside by the stats community).

[MixxAOR]

Gary Trent Sr. > Eric Flynn

[planetmars]

Heard the tail end of that interview in the car.. Senior is great.. hope they bring him back to do more radio. Would love to hear him and Alvin go at it as well.

[golden]

Gary Trent Sr. > Eric Flynn

The bigger story here could be how bad the Blazers culture might be (one player's perspective, of course).