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  • planetmars wrote: View Post

    I don't know why size is important for making passes. There are a lot of short players in the league who were great passers. That's actually been an advantage as they can get into traffic and make a quick pass to a cutter or someone that is open.

    Trae, Paul, Ja, Garland, Lowry are all short dudes that can pass the ball like the best of them.

    As for breaking down as he gets older.. I mean he's a lot like Lowry who's 36 and still playing / starting for a team. I'd say Kyle has thrown is body even more than Fred when they played the same amount of games.

    What this has to do with him starting versus coming off the bench I'm unsure about.

    As for "selfish hard to know".. I'm not sure why you don't. What has he demonstrated to make him appear selfish? Even last night he was allowing both Malachi and Scottie to run the plays in the 4th quarter as he sat back in the corner.

    well for one... from a physics stand point torque is equal to the magnitude of force and a lever arm. So if you have two arm lengths and hold all other factors constant you can through a faster pass. Also his height holds him back from being able to see over the top of the defence.



    good video of two guys looking at an example of this. Just look at the timestamped play

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    • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

      well for one... from a physics stand point torque is equal to the magnitude of force and a lever arm. So if you have two arm lengths and hold all other factors constant you can through a faster pass. Also his height holds him back from being able to see over the top of the defence.



      good video of two guys looking at an example of this. Just look at the timestamped play
      But again it doesn't explain why Chris Paul typically leads the league in assists. Height might be an advantage in some aspects, but not all aspects. And again what does this have to do with Fred coming off the bench?

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      • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post


        This doesn't necessarily mean that one should automatically be on the bench over the other. It just simply means or at least as I am reading it.. that their skill set that is most valuable in the starting line up is some what redundant with one another. Hypothetically it could be Gary in the line up or Fred. At least that is how I interpret it.

        Hypothetically the argument for FVV off the bench could be focused on preserving his body but also running with the notion that he has a higher ability to raise the floor of lower tier lineups as compared to Gary.


        I am just pointing this out to move the conversation forward.
        Right the argument could be all that stuff but I’ve been pointing out that all that stuff is nonsense. Fred doesn’t buoy bench lineups, you need Pascal or Scottie for that, and the nominal shooter beside them in the bench group is not important, so either Fred or Gary would do fine. Fred’s benefit is defence, which is less valuable off the bench against bench players. Gary’s benefit is a little more shot creation for himself, exactly the sort of thing the bench looks need more than the starters.

        As for Gary or Fred being interchangeable in the starting group if they are playing off ball, mayyyyyyyybe, and even that only looks at offence. So there is a moderately reasonable argument to be made if we focus only on that group and ignore the bench AND, most importantly, ignore literally half the game (defence).

        If you want to play Fred 24 minutes a night to protect him from injury, by all means. If you are thinking the more reasonable 32-36 minute range they should actually be playing him, they can do that starting him just fine. Just need to find some shooting and scoring off the bench from the guard spots… Hmm, wonder where we could find that? Probably nowhere, never mind.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • planetmars wrote: View Post

          But again it doesn't explain why Chris Paul typically leads the league in assists. Height might be an advantage in some aspects, but not all aspects. And again what does this have to do with Fred coming off the bench?
          Yep. Until recently, tall playmakers were the exception in the NBA. Fred just isn’t a gifted passer like other true PGs. I’ve always thought of Fred more like an Eric Gordon, Jordon Clarkson, Jalen Brunson combo guard type on offense with less creation and better shooting, but with better defense,

          The defense is what allows Fred to be an unquestioned starter instead of a career 6th man, but for those type of combo guard guys, the arc of their careers can be boosted significantly by unconditional support from a coach. Fred has that with Nurse. That said, Fred’s defense has been spotty this year.

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          • planetmars wrote: View Post

            But again it doesn't explain why Chris Paul typically leads the league in assists. Height might be an advantage in some aspects, but not all aspects. And again what does this have to do with Fred coming off the bench?
            Chris Paul like lowry is extraordinary because of his reads.. There is another part to this. Fred doesn't "thread the needle". Lowry was always more 'balsy' with his passes. It didn't always work out early on in his career but he grew from it and learned the timing so well. That is why he was so dangerous with that short roll pass to Ibaka.


            Now one may ask the question of whether or not FVV will develop that skill. It is possible that he can or will. I don't know the future. It is a bit of a mindset thing. He SEEMS to be focused on taking care of the ball and not making a turnover. That is obviously a good thing but as a result he is sometimes missing these opportunities and with experience those opportunities could become deadly. It's why I have noticed he likes the lob pass to koloko over the short roll pass. It's why he may not toss that puppy into space ahead of the target. It isn't always about passing to a guy but instead anticipating where he will be or could be. There are levels to this. Some guys are proactive and manipulative passers. Others are not and closer to being reactive. Few guys are proactive with their reads and passes. The ones that are .... well they are special. Now if you have that skill set and you combine it with the height advantage ... then you have something that is potentially so unique that if you develop it could be game-breaking.

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            • golden wrote: View Post

              Yep. Until recently, tall playmakers were the exception in the NBA. Fred just isn’t a gifted passer like other true PGs. I’ve always thought of Fred more like an Eric Gordon, Jordon Clarkson, Jalen Brunson combo guard type on offense with less creation and better shooting, but with better defense,

              The defense is what allows Fred to be an unquestioned starter instead of a career 6th man, but for those type of combo guard guys, the arc of their careers can be boosted significantly by unconditional support from a coach. Fred has that with Nurse. That said, Fred’s defense has been spotty this year.
              Jalen Brunson is so similar to Fred it's weird. But like you said Brunson is a bit more creative offensively.



              Fred is good enough to be a starter. No question about it. Ideally you dont run him into the ground. BUT as I keep saying if you have a chance to get KD or Shai, and its FVV and Trent as the main current assets going out.... I personally wouldn't think twice I would just do it. Obviously, you could quibble over the exact pick equity etc but yeah you do it. Now other people dislike fred to the point where they just want him off the damn team close to by any means necessary. I dont agree with that. Even if I did dislike fred that much which I don't. He is a good player. I am not taking a talent downgrade just for the sake of it. GTJ and Fred have their issues and since even last year at times I have hinted that GTJ is likely the odd man out. Don't be surprised if Fred is still here but GTJ is not by the time the deadline rolls around. Not guaranteed but I wouldn't be surprised.

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              • TrueTorontoFan wrote: View Post

                Jalen Brunson is so similar to Fred it's weird. But like you said Brunson is a bit more creative offensively.



                Fred is good enough to be a starter. No question about it. Ideally you dont run him into the ground. BUT as I keep saying if you have a chance to get KD or Shai, and its FVV and Trent as the main current assets going out.... I personally wouldn't think twice I would just do it. Obviously, you could quibble over the exact pick equity etc but yeah you do it. Now other people dislike fred to the point where they just want him off the damn team close to by any means necessary. I dont agree with that. Even if I did dislike fred that much which I don't. He is a good player. I am not taking a talent downgrade just for the sake of it. GTJ and Fred have their issues and since even last year at times I have hinted that GTJ is likely the odd man out. Don't be surprised if Fred is still here but GTJ is not by the time the deadline rolls around. Not guaranteed but I wouldn't be surprised.
                I told people years ago when he was a bench player that Brunson could be Fred’s doppelgänger, if given the same opportunities, and most posters thought I was just hating. No, the main point was that a scoring/combo guard is the easiest position to overvalue a player and inflate stats, as long as the coach enables it. Fred has received that unconditional support from Nurse and has taken full advantage of it, to his credit.

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                • golden wrote: View Post

                  I told people years ago when he was a bench player that Brunson could be Fred’s doppelgänger, if given the same opportunities, and most posters thought I was just hating. No, the main point was that a scoring/combo guard is the easiest position to overvalue a player and inflate stats, as long as the coach enables it. Fred has received that unconditional support from Nurse and has taken full advantage of it, to his credit.
                  I have heard the whole Nurse trusts Fred unconditionally argument before. I think it may have merit but I would like to explore it more.

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                  • golden wrote: View Post

                    I told people years ago when he was a bench player that Brunson could be Fred’s doppelgänger, if given the same opportunities, and most posters thought I was just hating. No, the main point was that a scoring/combo guard is the easiest position to overvalue a player and inflate stats, as long as the coach enables it. Fred has received that unconditional support from Nurse and has taken full advantage of it, to his credit.
                    personally i took issue with your fred as trey burke and patty mills doppelgangers, not brunson.

                    i also think the chris boucher/brandon clarke/montrezl harrell etc. energy big off the bench roles are easiest to overvalue a player due to inflated stats, since their efficiencies are often sky-high.

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                    • chris wrote: View Post

                      personally i took issue with your fred as trey burke and patty mills doppelgangers, not brunson.

                      i also think the chris boucher/brandon clarke/montrezl harrell etc. energy big off the bench roles are easiest to overvalue a player due to inflated stats, since their efficiencies are often sky-high.
                      We’ll Fred literally is Patty Mills 2.0, right down to the championship ring & reputation courtesy of Kawhi. The thing that separates Fred is defense. And it should have been obvious that I was trolling a bit with Trey Burke, but that was related to a scoring PG off the bench, which Burke could do.

                      And super hard disagree on elite energy bigs being overvalued because of efficiency. What a crazy argument that is. That’s exactly why they are hugely undervalued and help you win games. Put backs off OREBs are the single most undervalued play in basketball. You win games by being more efficient (per possession) than the other team. Nurse is exploiting that by trying to win the possession game, and guys like Boucher and Clarke help the Raps and Grizz do that. Trez’ best days are behind him, but he was a big reason the Clips and Rockets had some good years.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post

                        We’ll Fred literally is Patty Mills 2.0, right down to the championship ring & reputation courtesy of Kawhi. The thing that separates Fred is defense. And it should have been obvious that I was trolling a bit with Trey Burke, but that was related to a scoring PG off the bench, which Burke could do.

                        And super hard disagree on elite energy bigs being overvalued because of efficiency. What a crazy argument that is. That’s exactly why they are hugely undervalued and help you win games. Put backs off OREBs are the single most undervalued play in basketball. You win games by being more efficient (per possession) than the other team. Nurse is exploiting that by trying to win the possession game, and guys like Boucher and Clarke help the Raps and Grizz do that. Trez’ best days are behind him, but he was a big reason the Clips and Rockets had some good years.
                        sure fred is patty mills 2.0 if you consider only their shot profiles and offensive numbers, ignore literally half the game (defense) and the fact that mills is primarily an off-ball guard who does most of his damage coming off screens.

                        by overvaluing energy bigs all i mean is that their roles as lower usage players who catch lobs, score off put-backs, rebound etc. are inherently conducive to posting high efficiency numbers and they tend to be fairly replaceable, which is why these types of guys rarely get huge paydays. which i suppose doesn't make them too overvalued but i was meaning in the sense that fanbases become overly attached to them in hypothetical BS trade scenarios on internet message boards.
                        Last edited by chris; Sun Nov 20, 2022, 11:09 PM.

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                        • chris wrote: View Post

                          sure fred is patty mills 2.0 if you consider only their shot profiles and offensive numbers, ignore literally half the game (defense) and the fact that mills is primarily an off-ball guard who does most of his damage coming off screens.

                          by overvaluing energy bigs all i mean is that their roles as lower usage players who catch lobs, score off put-backs, rebound etc. are inherently conducive to posting high efficiency numbers and they tend to be fairly replaceable, which is why these types of guys rarely get huge paydays. which i suppose doesn't make them too overvalued but i was meaning in the sense that fanbases become overly attached to them in hypothetical BS trade scenarios on internet message boards.
                          Well, first of all... Mills did have years where he played PG and had > 20% AST%, just like Fred... so he's more than capable of being a weakly creating PG, just like Fred. Pop chose to use him differently and maximize his shooting instead of playmaking. That's what I mean by coach & role having a significant impact. If a younger Patty Mills plays for Nurse, it's not inconceivable that he becomes a fringe all-star, is my point.

                          Secondly, for high-efficiency (> 120 ORTG) energy bigs, they are not all the same.... the key differentiator to look at is USG. There's a big difference between Dwight Powell at 12% USG and peak Montrezl Harrell at 23.8%. Trez was borderline all-star and well-deserved 6MOTY. That's not easily replaceable. At that high ORTG (120+), anything near and above 20% USG is elite, and Boucher is in that conversation. That's why his advanced impact numbers usually look so great... because they are directly contributing to winning.

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                          • It is time to part ways with Gary Trent Jr, his a great shooter but when you have James Wiseman, Jonathan Kuminga, Donte DiVincenzo, and a second-round pick on the line, you take the offer and fleece them hard. We will go down history as the team that beat the Champ and fleeced them.

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                            • tenforthewin wrote: View Post
                              It is time to part ways with Gary Trent Jr, his a great shooter but when you have James Wiseman, Jonathan Kuminga, Donte DiVincenzo, and a second-round pick on the line, you take the offer and fleece them hard. We will go down history as the team that beat the Champ and fleeced them.
                              I have some doubts on Wiseman

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                              • tenforthewin wrote: View Post
                                It is time to part ways with Gary Trent Jr, his a great shooter but when you have James Wiseman, Jonathan Kuminga, Donte DiVincenzo, and a second-round pick on the line, you take the offer and fleece them hard. We will go down history as the team that beat the Champ and fleeced them.
                                GTJr seems like just the type of player that would torch us in the playoffs and cost the Raps an important game

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