Everything Gary Trent Jr.

[Yuri Gagarin]

Statistics are great and useful things to have to back up our opinions on here, but not pre-requisites for those opinions.

My opinion is that Gary is a bad defender, based on watching him play. Some people agree, obviously some don't. Nick seems to be among those who agree, based on his usage of Gary and his critique of his recent play, but perhaps not.

I would agree that Gary is nowhere near the defensive problem DeMar was. Of course, he's also nowhere near the offensive player DeMar took leaps and bounds to become in order to provide positive overall value.

I do think Fred has had a bad defensive year by his standards, but his standards are way higher than Gary's, and there's a reason for that.

How was freds D five years ago?

[The Claw Reborn]

Statistics are great and useful things to have to back up our opinions on here, but not pre-requisites for those opinions.

My opinion is that Gary is a bad defender, based on watching him play. Some people agree, obviously some don't. Nick seems to be among those who agree, based on his usage of Gary and his critique of his recent play, but perhaps not.

I would agree that Gary is nowhere near the defensive problem DeMar was. Of course, he's also nowhere near the offensive player DeMar took leaps and bounds to become in order to provide positive overall value.

I do think Fred has had a bad defensive year by his standards, but his standards are way higher than Gary's, and there's a reason for that.

Gary usage this season is 21.7%
VanVleet usage this season is 21.2%

not much there but the bias is real to one player and the other got called out by his coach….safest to hide VanVleet while the other is the scapegoat.

Yet both are injured one way or the other, trickled down around here.

lol.

[The Claw Reborn]

id give that award to walt williams

But Derozan is like a sore thumb that stuck out for a decade.

thankfully we got one of the best defender of all time for him and landed us our one and only championship.

there is a god.

[Yuri Gagarin]

But Derozan is like a sore thumb that stuck out for a decade.

thankfully we got one of the best defender of all time for him and landed us our one and only championship.

there is a god.

Yes. And even derozan a 9th pick wasnt held under such scrutiny as trent a 37th pick when he was 23. Also as mentioned neither was fred at 23. I dont get it.

[DanH]

How was freds D five years ago?

Basically always excellent.

[DanH]

Gary usage this season is 21.7%
VanVleet usage this season is 21.2%

not much there but the bias is real to one player and the other got called out by his coach….safest to hide VanVleet while the other is the scapegoat.

Yet both are injured one way or the other, trickled down around here.

lol.

I was clearly not talking about offensive usage, right? Please tell me that is not what you took from that discussion.

[The Claw Reborn]

Statistics are great and useful things to have to back up our opinions on here, but not pre-requisites for those opinions.

My opinion is that Gary is a bad defender, based on watching him play. Some people agree, obviously some don't. Nick seems to be among those who agree, based on his usage of Gary and his critique of his recent play, but perhaps not.

I would agree that Gary is nowhere near the defensive problem DeMar was. Of course, he's also nowhere near the offensive player DeMar took leaps and bounds to become in order to provide positive overall value.

I do think Fred has had a bad defensive year by his standards, but his standards are way higher than Gary's, and there's a reason for that.

How was freds D five years ago?

Though the author of the first post said that statistics are not prerequisites for those opinions, same poster who once said that there is no specific metric available out there to accurately measure defense, yet has strong opinions about Gary Trent, why is that? Not sure.

But your question is very interesting, eager to know the statistics to back up the response to your query.

[DanH]

Yes. And even derozan a 9th pick wasnt held under such scrutiny as trent a 37th pick when he was 23. Also as mentioned neither was fred at 23. I dont get it.

I take it you weren't posting here when DeRozan was 23 then, because absolutely many of us were critical of his defence at the time and were concerned he would not improve it.

[The Claw Reborn]

Yes. And even derozan a 9th pick wasnt held under such scrutiny as trent a 37th pick when he was 23. Also as mentioned neither was fred at 23. I dont get it.

Not one member of the coaching team nor whoever was the coach at the helm who had the courage to call out Derozan of his poor defense. He was the chosen one so I am seeing history repeat itself.

On the flip side, Trent is an easy target so was Norman Powell, Jonas V and the other collateral damage.

As I said, trickles down here.

[DanH]

OK you want to get some idea why Nick might be upset with Gary's defence this season and not with Fred's?

There's no perfect defensive stat, but D-EPM is pretty solid as far as impact metrics go. Gary is sporting a -0.8, good for 35th percentile league wide. Fred is sporting a +2.1, good for 96th percentile league wide. I wonder why a coach might call out Gary and not Fred?? Weird, right?

(OG is a +3.2, 100th percentile, at the moment, which is awesome).

[The Claw Reborn]

I was clearly not talking about offensive usage, right? Please tell me that is not what you took from that discussion.

It does not matter, I don’t want to once again drag our discussion to oblivion like the millions we got engaged both into.

bottomline, both players are injured one way or the other.

coach just picked the one that is the easiest way out.

[planetmars]

Yes. And even derozan a 9th pick wasnt held under such scrutiny as trent a 37th pick when he was 23. Also as mentioned neither was fred at 23. I dont get it.

It's also about expectations. Fred at 23 was in his second year. He was a guy that we brought in as an undrafted free agent.. like Dowtin. And he helped our bench a lot in 2018, even getting 6MOY votes.

DeMar at 23 was definitely getting it.. and when he got his rookie extension it was judged harshly at the time. He ended up making the all-star team the next year but was still always a guy that got ripped apart a lot. The "Everything DeMar" thread was full of vile. But he also had his super fans. And that made discussions tough to sift through as it was always two sides angrily debating between each other.

Trent taking that 2+1 deal and being on the verge of being a UFA, at least for me, feels like he was just on loan. Masai/Bobby never talk about him. Is he even going to be part of the Raptors future? I personally feel like he's just a rental. So I look at his game that way. I could be wrong, but I'm not personally caring about his long term career as a Raptor, because I don't think there is going to be one. If he re-signs with us in the off season for a long term deal, then that's when I will start looking at his game more carefully. But for now he just feels like an every day role player. Like a younger Danny Green.

[The Claw Reborn]

OK you want to get some idea why Nick might be upset with Gary's defence this season and not with Fred's?

There's no perfect defensive stat, but D-EPM is pretty solid as far as impact metrics go. Gary is sporting a -0.8, good for 35th percentile league wide. Fred is sporting a +2.1, good for 96th percentile league wide. I wonder why a coach might call out Gary and not Fred?? Weird, right?

(OG is a +3.2, 100th percentile, at the moment, which is awesome).

Meh….you just argued against your original stance about defensive stats….lol.

Not weird at all…it is expected from Nurse.

[DanH]

Meh….you just argued against your original stance about defensive stats….lol.

Not weird at all…it is expected from Nurse.

Please point me to this original stance. There is of course no perfect catch all, but we have lots of tools to measure players by.

And yes, I agree, I would also expect Nurse to be upset by the bad defender and happy with the good one. I especially understand Nick's frustrations because Gary did actually show out as an above average defensive impact guy last season with his high activity and disruption overriding his inability to defend one on one - and it's exactly that missing aspect this year that Nick is upset about in his quotes. No surprise that his defensive impact has cratered with that aspect of his game AWOL.

[The Claw Reborn]

Please point me to this original stance. There is of course no perfect catch all, but we have lots of tools to measure players by.

And yes, I agree, I would also expect Nurse to be upset by the bad defender and happy with the good one. I especially understand Nick's frustrations because Gary did actually show out as an above average defensive impact guy last season with his high activity and disruption overriding his inability to defend one on one - and it's exactly that missing aspect this year that Nick is upset about in his quotes. No surprise that his defensive impact has cratered with that aspect of his game AWOL.

No need….expected as usual with your other stance…next time I promise I will flag them. .

gary is injured (Hip Injury and non COVID Illness), why do you even have to prolong this discussion?