Everything Gary Trent Jr.

[The Claw Reborn]

All players are bad when asked to do more than they are capable of. That fact alone is the reason I defended Demar as much as I did and the reason why "hating" on players is something I just can't stand. I'm no Fred van vleet Homer by any stretch, he isn't a perfect player, but his value to the team is positive, if you can't see or acknowledge that then it is what it is. Presently, the same cannot be said about Trent, but hey, he's young I guess.

Of course I value VanVleet to this team, why I am coherently willing to offer him even before this season started 100 million for four years if I am Masai based on his abilities and obvious limitations as a player.

take it or leave it

[TrueTorontoFan]

Of course I value VanVleet to this team, why I am coherently willing to offer him even before this season started 100 million for four years if I am Masai based on his abilities and obvious limitations as a player.

take it or leave it

just trying to push the conversation along again.. is it not fair to say that the valuation of say your 100 million is arbitrary because its dependent on the year to year salary cap.. like if the cap was different you would offer him the same more or less to adjust to the shift in cap?

[G__Deane]

just trying to push the conversation along again.. is it not fair to say that the valuation of say your 100 million is arbitrary because its dependent on the year to year salary cap.. like if the cap was different you would offer him the same more or less to adjust to the shift in cap?

I don't really understand the cap is X so give player Y $30M
Now the cap rises to X+ so give the same player $40M

They're worth what they're worth, not a % of the cap....and what about teams that only spend 80% of the cap?

[TrueTorontoFan]

I don't have any real problem with Fred in isolation, when he's at his best he's a difference maker.
At the same time, I don't see him as the likely PG on a chip winning team and there are so many out there that seem to have more of the It factor. So as opposed to just throwing him on the scrap pile, I see him as a potential important trade piece as we go forward with a core of Pascal, Barnes, OG, Koloko and maybe Achiuwa. If it's apparent it's no longer Flynn, can Banton or Dowtin step firmly into the backup PG role?

I also think Nurse and Masai just love him for the person he is to the point of too much loyalty and he may even be harder for Masai to pull the triger on than DeMar was

I really like this team even down to Boucher, Thad, Otto and Bo Cruz. It needs a big tweak and it's a chancey major one imo. We can beat any team on a given night but I really think the Celtics, Bucks and yes, Sixers and Nets beat us in a series. That sucks.
Need to see this team healthy for a few weeks to settle firmly into my hot take though....

i have an issue with him isoing against bigger players

[TrueTorontoFan]

I don't really understand the cap is X so give player Y $30M
Now the cap rises to X+ so give the same player $40M

They're worth what they're worth, not a % of the cap....and what about teams that only spend 80% of the cap?

there is a minimum amount that teams have to spend if they spend under that amount the remaining amount gets distributed to the rest of the players to get your team to that minimum floor. teams rarely opt for that though

the problem for me isn't above or below the cap but whether you choose to be a tax team or not... but that isn't part of this discussion.

Max or super max contracts are worked out as an exact percentage of the cap.


The salaries that are not ... well they are not. A high level rotation piece back in the day would have got say $10 million to maybe max $17 those guys are now getting $25-35 million on average each year which is significantly more

[DanH]

I don't really understand the cap is X so give player Y $30M
Now the cap rises to X+ so give the same player $40M

They're worth what they're worth, not a % of the cap....and what about teams that only spend 80% of the cap?

This is just fundamentally untrue. Players are absolutely worth a % of the cap. It's all about allocating available roster spend to the right talent. That happens via ratios with the cap, not some random dollar amount we decide a player is worth regardless of the financial health of the league.

[G__Deane]

This is just fundamentally untrue. Players are absolutely worth a % of the cap. It's all about allocating available roster spend to the right talent. That happens via ratios with the cap, not some random dollar amount we decide a player is worth regardless of the financial health of the league.

I can't even be bothered to answer yet another post that entirely addresses what I didn't say. Go find Claw

[Primer]

I can't even be bothered to answer yet another post that entirely addresses what I didn't say. Go find Claw

You said "They're worth what they're worth, not a % of the cap" and Dan directly addressed that.

[golden]

I honestly could care less if he ever wins another all star, he's all star caliber and that's what matters. Do everything as in he contributes at a very high level on both ends of the floor. Many of the other top guards are one way players, including the guys who will beat him out for the all star game, cough Mitchell cough.

I'd be concerned about Fred's future trade value. Like it or not, the title of All-Star adds real trade value when a front office is considering bringing in a guy in that salary range. The GM has to sell the trade to his owner and the fan base. The other factor is age and health. Looking down the road, let's say we sign Fred for 4 more guaranteed years in the off-season (like you are hoping) and then we're looking to trade him for a dis-gruntled star (Shai).... 4 years from today. What's his market value in the future?

Well... Fred is injured every year and seems to be breaking down more often than before (thanks, Nick). He'll be 32-33... an age where PGs have traditionally started to steeply fall off the cliff (CP3 & Lowry are exceptions). His 1X All-Star will be long forgotten and even more young guards will be on the rise, and new kids entering the league on rookie scale contracts. As an overall trend... how interested will teams be in trading for a highly-paid undersized SG / weak creating PG at a time when the league is moving towards big ball-handlers?

[JawsGT]

I'd be concerned about Fred's future trade value. Like it or not, the title of All-Star adds real trade value when a front office is considering bringing in a guy in that salary range. The GM has to sell the trade to his owner and the fan base. The other factor is age and health. Looking down the road, let's say we sign Fred for 4 more guaranteed years in the off-season (like you are hoping) and then we're looking to trade him for a dis-gruntled star (Shai).... 4 years from today. What's his market value in the future?

Well... Fred is injured every year and seems to be breaking down more often than before (thanks, Nick). He'll be 32-33... an age where PGs have traditionally started to steeply fall off the cliff (CP3 & Lowry are exceptions). His 1X All-Star will be long forgotten and even more young guards will be on the rise, and new kids entering the league on rookie scale contracts. As an overall trend... how interested will teams be in trading for a highly-paid undersized SG / weak creating PG at a time when the league is moving towards big ball-handlers?

You're concerns are certainly valid, but Fred will not be resigned with the intent to trade him at a specific time in the future, or at all. He will be resigned because he helps the team win games and management likes to retain assets. If he does get traded after an extension, it will because an opportunity arises in which he can be used to upgrade the team, or downgrade, if a rebuild is in order and picks or prospects can be acquired. But there is certainly a point salary wise where he is paid too much, and that might hinder future trades. That is true of all players except a small handful of course (Luka, Giannis, Jokic, Morant, maybe shai etc) I think our management is very in tune with players valuations and we seem to rarely overpay. Carroll is the only name I can think of presently that was a bad overpay and required a trade to salary dump. I am confidant an extension for Fred will never enter that territory. Furthermore, at full strength, Fred's role on this team is different than the last few seasons, so much so that it might be enough to keep his salary reasonable as the team will not be as dependent on his ball handling a playmaking it once was.

[DanH]

I can't even be bothered to answer yet another post that entirely addresses what I didn't say. Go find Claw

You said they are worth what they are worth, not a percentage of the cap. That's exactly the comment I was addressing.

Players get a cut of revenues generated from their labour, which is how the cap is set. So, what they are worth is tied explicitly to the cap. I don't follow this "player is worth this many dollars no matter how much the league is worth" idea. The context of the cap and league wide spending is everything when you are evaluating player worth. Boggles my mind that anyone would ignore that context.

[DanH]

I'd be concerned about Fred's future trade value. Like it or not, the title of All-Star adds real trade value when a front office is considering bringing in a guy in that salary range. The GM has to sell the trade to his owner and the fan base. The other factor is age and health. Looking down the road, let's say we sign Fred for 4 more guaranteed years in the off-season (like you are hoping) and then we're looking to trade him for a dis-gruntled star (Shai).... 4 years from today. What's his market value in the future?

Well... Fred is injured every year and seems to be breaking down more often than before (thanks, Nick). He'll be 32-33... an age where PGs have traditionally started to steeply fall off the cliff (CP3 & Lowry are exceptions). His 1X All-Star will be long forgotten and even more young guards will be on the rise, and new kids entering the league on rookie scale contracts. As an overall trend... how interested will teams be in trading for a highly-paid undersized SG / weak creating PG at a time when the league is moving towards big ball-handlers?

Teams generally aren't trading their 30+ year old guys for stars. Young guys with upside, ideally already established as borderline all star types, those are the pieces that move for value in a star trade. Older guys with salary are usually in there for salary matching, if anything.

If we re-sign Fred it's to keep him (although of course if a star is on the market and his deal helps, fine). If we re-sign Gary it's possibly to keep him, possibly to use in such a trade. I expect we try to re-sign both, for that reason.

[Primer]

I'd be concerned about Fred's future trade value. Like it or not, the title of All-Star adds real trade value when a front office is considering bringing in a guy in that salary range. The GM has to sell the trade to his owner and the fan base. The other factor is age and health. Looking down the road, let's say we sign Fred for 4 more guaranteed years in the off-season (like you are hoping) and then we're looking to trade him for a dis-gruntled star (Shai).... 4 years from today. What's his market value in the future?

Well... Fred is injured every year and seems to be breaking down more often than before (thanks, Nick). He'll be 32-33... an age where PGs have traditionally started to steeply fall off the cliff (CP3 & Lowry are exceptions). His 1X All-Star will be long forgotten and even more young guards will be on the rise, and new kids entering the league on rookie scale contracts. As an overall trend... how interested will teams be in trading for a highly-paid undersized SG / weak creating PG at a time when the league is moving towards big ball-handlers?

In 4 years Fred would be an expiring $32M deal when the cap is near $180M. It will be a super duper easy contract to trade if we want to. Fred would also fit great next to Shai. Either way we keep him.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I can't even be bothered to answer yet another post that entirely addresses what I didn't say. Go find Claw

while may have come across as snarky he did answer your question and I also attempted to as well. and for Dan I said may .. not accusing you of being snarky in this instance

[TrueTorontoFan]

In 4 years Fred would be an expiring $32M deal when the cap is near $180M. It will be a super duper easy contract to trade if we want to. Fred would also fit great next to Shai. Either way we keep him.

the cap may even be higher too I dont know if we absolutely keep him but if there is no obvious trade you turn the asset over.