Everything 2021 Tank

[S.R.]

What's happening in New York is the well established chapter 1 of "So, You've Decided to Have Thibs Coach Your Team for 4 Seasons?" novella. Halfway through chapter 2 (next season), you'll start to hear rumblings of RJ and Randle being discontented with the practices and heavy handed coaching. Chapter 3 you have players tuning out Thibs as a well established locker room issue as the team spins its wheels somewhere between the middle to the bottom of the playoff seeding. Chapter 4 the countdown is on and the inevitable conclusion is apparent to everyone - there will be no Chapter 5, Thibs is getting fired.

[NoPropsneeded]

Nerlens is on his 4th team in 4 years on a close to minimum contract. That’s the definition of scrub. Randle is on his 3rd team and was the poster child for empty stats, no defense perennial loser. RJ never even made the all-rookie team and was already being called a potential bust. Let’s not pretend that we all knew these guys were world beaters when the season started. Give Thibs some credit. It’s okay to acknowledge that other teams sometimes get things right. We don’t have to be insecure about it. We just won a chip.

So you think Thibs waved his magic wand and make this a competent team? Coaches aren't wizards all they can do is try to motivate, push, draw up plays and hope his/her team executes. These guys clearly got better and are playing together as a team. The fact that you're writing off guys because of past season is very odd considering Pascal and Fred use to be role players lol. Maybe YOU should give the players some credit. Also, I did give them credit but I also took into the consideration the circumstances of our team. Circumstances which are very unusual and frankly puts the entire team at a disadvantage.

[The Great One]

Sometimes things just click. When the Raptors traded for Lowry 9 years ago, did anyone here think that one day we'd be talking about him as the greatest Raptor of all time? for the record Kawhi is still my GROAT but I know a lot of people here thinks it's Lowry.

So anyway, Lowry was on his 3rd team when the Raptors traded for him, and back then he has a reputation of being a knucklehead. Things just clicked for Lowry here. Maybe the Knicks found their Lowry in Julius Randle.

[S.R.]

So you think Thibs waved his magic wand and make this a competent team? Coaches aren't wizards all they can do is try to motivate, push, draw up plays and hope his/her team executes. These guys clearly got better and are playing together as a team. The fact that you're writing off guys because of past season is very odd considering Pascal and Fred use to be role players lol. Maybe YOU should give the players some credit. Also, I did give them credit but I also took into the consideration the circumstances of our team. Circumstances which are very unusual and frankly puts the entire team at a disadvantage.

The teams Thibs went to as head coach:
- Chicago 41-41 pre-Thibs, 62-20 Thibs Year 1. Thibs fired after Year 5.
- Minny 29-53 pre-Thibs, 31-51 Thibs Year 1, 47-35 Thibs year 2. Thibs fired halfway through Year 3.
- NYK - 21-45 pre-Thibs, 31-27 Thibs Year 1 (48 win pace). Thibs fired...?

Thibs turns bad teams around in pretty short order. He gets them playing hard, gets them playing defence, and gets them playing together. He also runs his top players into the ground with HEAVY minutes - Julius Randle leading the league in mpg this year which is hilariously very Thibs, his teams tend to not impress in the playoffs, and he loses the locker room pretty quick. I mean think about what a coach has to do to coach turnarounds like Thibs has, then still get fired so soon after. The situations are not good.

Thibs coming in and coaching a team up to a 48 win pace is not a surprise at all, this is the third time in a row he's done this. We'll see if it ends the same way for a third time in a row, too.

[planetmars]

JV wasnt a good defender either yet we were consistently in top 5-10 in the league in defense. i dont think its just a center problem.

I've watched every game this year unfortunately for me.. you can see that the biggest problem was lack of rim protection early. JV was a good rim protector.. and elite rebounder. I can't remember how many times we failed to seal a rebound on a great defensive position. Or guys got wide open looks on 3 because we had multiple guys run into help the perimeter defender as they were driving to the rim. There was no trust by the players that we'd be able to stop them at the rim.. so instead 3 guys would come barging in, leaving wide open shooters over and over again. It's how we lost to teams like Sacramento, Charlotte, Cleveland, etc, etc. The Tony Snell buzzer beater against us was that play right there.. where Norm Powell felt like he had to over help and lost his guy.

Then on top of that, early on, our guys fouled the heck out of everyone.. because they were so undersized. So when you foul often, you are either scared of fouling out so you play a little more relaxed on defense, or an inferior guy is coming off the bench to replace the more talented player.

Defense also means trying hard.. and as the losses start piling up, you as a player don't want to try as hard. That's just natural. Fred looked like he didn't want to be there the last time out. Pascal stopped playing defense hard for most of the year (although some of that his on him). OG gave up on plays too. And he's our best defender.

I really do think that if we brought back Serge or even Marc who's completely washed now.. we'd have a top 10 defense in the league and we'd be in the 4-5-6 territory in the East going into the playoffs. Marc is a bad rebounder, but he knows how to seal off his guy so that someone else can grab the board instead. I have no idea what Baynes was doing half the time he was out there.

[DanH]

JV wasnt a good defender either yet we were consistently in top 5-10 in the league in defense. i dont think its just a center problem.

Well, maybe that should have you question how good or bad a defender you assume JV was.

[DanH]

The other thing about the Thibs defence is it's a very conservative scheme. Which works great over the long grind of the regular season. Nurse's schemes are designed specifically for the playoffs. And rely heavily on having no gaps, and we've had some significant gaps this year.

[golden]

Wow.... just giving a few props to Thibs for an unexpected turnaround season really hit a nerve. No need to be so insecure, guys. We're only 2 seasons away from our own unexpected championship and an unexpectedly robust title defense. Nurse is great, but he isn't perfect. Thibs is even further from perfect.

Nobody is. Not Masai, not the players... nobody. Not even posters on RR.

[Demographic Shift]

Nerlens is on his 4th team in 4 years on a close to minimum contract. That’s the definition of scrub. Randle is on his 3rd team and was the poster child for empty stats, no defense perennial loser. RJ never even made the all-rookie team and was already being called a potential bust. Let’s not pretend that we all knew these guys were world beaters when the season started. Give Thibs some credit. It’s okay to acknowledge that other teams sometimes get things right. We don’t have to be insecure about it. We just won a chip.

Yes.
Thibs has made that team better.
Players do improve or have better years than their last as well without doubt... but if its still Fizdale on the sidelines do you think the Knicks make the post season ?

[S.R.]

I've watched every game this year unfortunately for me.. you can see that the biggest problem was lack of rim protection early. JV was a good rim protector.. and elite rebounder. I can't remember how many times we failed to seal a rebound on a great defensive position. Or guys got wide open looks on 3 because we had multiple guys run into help the perimeter defender as they were driving to the rim. There was no trust by the players that we'd be able to stop them at the rim.. so instead 3 guys would come barging in, leaving wide open shooters over and over again. It's how we lost to teams like Sacramento, Charlotte, Cleveland, etc, etc. The Tony Snell buzzer beater against us was that play right there.. where Norm Powell felt like he had to over help and lost his guy.

Then on top of that, early on, our guys fouled the heck out of everyone.. because they were so undersized. So when you foul often, you are either scared of fouling out so you play a little more relaxed on defense, or an inferior guy is coming off the bench to replace the more talented player.

Defense also means trying hard.. and as the losses start piling up, you as a player don't want to try as hard. That's just natural. Fred looked like he didn't want to be there the last time out. Pascal stopped playing defense hard for most of the year (although some of that his on him). OG gave up on plays too. And he's our best defender.

I really do think that if we brought back Serge or even Marc who's completely washed now.. we'd have a top 10 defense in the league and we'd be in the 4-5-6 territory in the East going into the playoffs. Marc is a bad rebounder, but he knows how to seal off his guy so that someone else can grab the board instead. I have no idea what Baynes was doing half the time he was out there.

Seeing the Raptors give up easy buckets (layups, especially off backdoor cuts & blown rotations) was such a shock to the system early in the season but I got completely used to it. The previous couple years that would happen maybe once a game, would be followed up by Serge/Gasol hollering at somebody, a post-whistle huddle to figure out the breakdown, and would not happen again. This team's defence - especially at the back line, like you say - has not been anywhere near that level of consistently correct execution. Still some very good on-ball perimeter defenders, but as a system just not at the same level at all. And yeah, it's the back line guys who left.

[MixxAOR]

Yes.
Thibs has made that team better.
Players do improve or have better years than their last as well without doubt... but if its still Fizdale on the sidelines do you think the Knicks make the post season ?

Thibs was also Timberwolves coach. And he didn't improve their team. It's obviously a symbiotic relationship. But saying stuff like "he took a bunch of scrubs and made them good" is unfair. You can't have defense ranking top 1 in different categories with scrubs. Period. No argument. It's disrespectful to game of basketball to even suggest it.

[TrueTorontoFan]

the back line is what has really harmed this team.

[planetmars]

Seeing the Raptors give up easy buckets (layups, especially off backdoor cuts & blown rotations) was such a shock to the system early in the season but I got completely used to it. The previous couple years that would happen maybe once a game, would be followed up by Serge/Gasol hollering at somebody, a post-whistle huddle to figure out the breakdown, and would not happen again. This team's defence - especially at the back line, like you say - has not been anywhere near that level of consistently correct execution. Still some very good on-ball perimeter defenders, but as a system just not at the same level at all. And yeah, it's the back line guys who left.

Yeah Freddie and Khem gave us some of that, and we're winning again. Although against bad teams (or in the case for the Spurs, a team that was at the tail end of a grueling road trip). But you can see how well we play defensively compared to early on this year, and we're primarily playing scrubs now.

That's why I think we'll get right back to where we were last year if we can upgrade our C spot. I don't mind bringing Gillespie or Birch back next year.. but we still need a starting caliber C. Boucher is not the answer there either. He's just not a center.

[S.R.]

Thibs was also Timberwolves coach. And he didn't improve their team. It's obviously a symbiotic relationship. But saying stuff like "he took a bunch of scrubs and made them good" is unfair. You can't have defense ranking top 1 in different categories with scrubs. Period. No argument. It's disrespectful to game of basketball to even suggest it.

Minnesota improved by 18 wins under Thibs - they also got Butler that season. Then it all blew apart.

He & the Knicks deserve a lot of credit for a big defensive improvement. Jumped from #22 DRTG to #3 per BBR. Phoenix jumped from #17 to #5, Warriors jumped from #26 to #7, some of these swings just happen from year to year with all the variables (injuries, transactions, coaching), but cracking top 3 is obviously very good.

Thibs' defences are just sort of the defensive mirror of Budenholzer's offences. He's got systems and he's got guys going hard and they definitely max out their potential in the regular season. But the whole thing tends to not do too well in the playoffs and doesn't age well. Knicks still need some more talent on that roster before anyone sees them as a real threat.

[Demographic Shift]

Thibs was also Timberwolves coach. And he didn't improve their team. It's obviously a symbiotic relationship. But saying stuff like "he took a bunch of scrubs and made them good" is unfair. You can't have defense ranking top 1 in different categories with scrubs. Period. No argument. It's disrespectful to game of basketball to even suggest it.

You can also consider that the Timberpups also had two of the least competitive "star" players in the NBA.
Andrew Wiggins and Karl Anthony Towns.
They were then and are now still zeros or less than zeros on the give a fuck meter at best....
They got shown up for this by Jimmy Butler about as subtly as a steelworkers strike. .
Butler then instructed his agent to get him out of there.
Towns cried and WIggins just robotically played on till Minny shipped him out.

Towns is still there and the reincarnation of Wiggins is Towns buddy D'Angelo Russell.
They are on their 2nd coach in two years post Thibs.
And they are in second in the 2021 Tankapolooza.
While its possible a new coach can improve this dog with fleas team that doesn't really compete... Its highly unlikely.
The players have to want to be better too.
Thibs has a lot more those types in NY and not so magically they are a better team than last year or the year before