Game 48 - Raptors @ OKC - March 31st, 8pm EST, TSN

[G__Deane]

This season has just become one giant April Fool's joke. 1 win in March and that was against the Nuggets, which was a farewell game for Lowry and Norm. This team really has no pride anymore.. but it really doesn't matter.

I hope to hell that draft pick we get ends up being a difference maker, and not some role player.

Trent was really good. Fred was nice defensively.. boxscore shows 4 blocks and 5 steals. I mean our 5'11 point guard almost got a 5x5 (off by one board, and one block). But yeah, just kept getting stuffed. Pascal was beyond terrible last night. I have no idea what is wrong with him. Just hope to hell we can use that covid excuse on him. He got to the line 10 times, but 2-9 and just meh production. Not good enough. OG was okay. I thought he could actually play better.. we could have used more help on the boards from him.

I mean we always complain about Baynes and we should.. but OG/Pascal should be able to box out and grab rebounds. I mean they both have size and length and quickness. It's about boxing out your man and going strong for rebounds.

We got out rebounded 64 to 35. That's insanity. How much effort is needed to play great defense, have the opponent put up a bad shot, only have to do it all over again because you didn't seal your possession.. but now everyone is out of position and you're giving up an easy dunk, lay up or 3pt shot.

Time and time and time again.. that's what has happened to this team. And it's with everyone.. from blatant tanking teams to good teams.

This is such an epic tank. Have to put this Raptor season in a museum. To go from the second best team in the league to this... after just losing Gasol (who the Lakers don't want to use anymore) and Serge Ibaka who we all love, but really, Serge Ibaka is the difference between a #2 overall and a tankfest? Might has well give him the MVP trophy right now.

We are basically tied for 6th in the draft right now, and the Wizards have 2 games in hand. Cavs are only 0.5 games out and also have a game in hand.

Getting to 5th seems like a possibility.

Imagine if they didn't win that one game...0-fer for an entire month!
And rebounding is historically bad, not just baynes, everyone.

[golden]

Fred is awful on drives. Like really bad.

Drives per NBA player tracking = any touch that starts at least 20 feet of the hoop and is dribbled within 10 feet of the hoop, excluding fast breaks

The best guards in the league are 50-58 FG% on drives. Siakam and OG are both over 50% but have size.

Kyle Lowry 47.5% (54% last year)

Fred 39%

That's bad. You're within 10 feet of the basket and you're taking shots under 40%. That's 'don't even take the shot' territory, for sure, especially on 2PA's.

Fred doesn't have the game to finish drives. A small guy like him needs three things: to initiate contact to create space, to be able to lay himself out horizontally to get his release point as far away from the defender as possible, and lots of English on the layups - also to keep the release point away from the defender. As an undersized guard, Lowry's really good at all three. He puts his ass into a guy, lays himself out, and puts a ton of English on the shot. No problem, finishes the attempt at the rim against a bigger defender.

Fred doesn't do any of that, at all really. He's got the quicks and the handle to dart in there for a layup, but it's just a block party because he's not protecting the shot, often not at all.

On the plus side, man his hands are awesome. How many fool OKC guys did he just take the ball from tonight? I saw three and I only watched the last quarter and a bit.

It's worse than that. Not only does Fred not get to the rim... he creates no easy looks for his teammates going to the basket. Zero rim pressure. So when you put the ball in FVV's hands, we become a one-trick pony. Almost a 100% perimeter team. Drive and kick for 3's, or worse.... re-set after re-set, with somebody else trying to create off the dribble at the end of the clock. That's why Fred's numbers look so great. He doesn't turn the ball over, but he doesn't create easy buckets either. He passes the buck (literally) to another teammate when he's in trouble or can't create... which is a lot of the time.

Fred hasn't learned anything from the bubble, when the Celtics baited him with clear path to the rim, knowing they could easily recover and force a bad shot most of the time.

[LJ2]

Guys, I think you might be overreacting to the teams problems by putting it all on Freddy. He's the only ball handler out there right now with Kyle out and everyone is looking to him to score especially when Pascal struggles. With no post scoring this year, the Raps offense is struggling and he's one of the few active guys that can get to the rim, albeit not finish well. What's the alternative, take more shots with a defender draped all over him? Baynes is a lost cause on this team, OG can't create for himself or others, Flynn has zero confidence, Trent and Hood may not even had time to take part in a practice day yet lol.

Not to mention Fred minutes are at an all time high, while being shorthanded most of the season. You can tell he's tired out there.

[A.I]

Guys, I think you might be overreacting to the teams problems by putting it all on Freddy. He's the only ball handler out there right now with Kyle out and everyone is looking to him to score especially when Pascal struggles. With no post scoring this year, the Raps offense is struggling and he's one of the few active guys that can get to the rim, albeit not finish well. What's the alternative, take more shots with a defender draped all over him? Baynes is a lost cause on this team, OG can't create for himself or others, Flynn has zero confidence, Trent and Hood may not even had time to take part in a practice day yet lol.

Not to mention Fred minutes are at an all time high, while being shorthanded most of the season. You can tell he's tired out there.

To be fair, the amount of shit Pascal has gotten since the bubble, people are realizing Fred has a shit load of his own flaws.

The current problems aren't all Fred's fault, there are a lot of problems piling on top of each other. For Fred specifically, he said so himself, conditioning is an issue for him, Pascal and OG after COVID.

[KeonClark]

Throwing it on Freddy and Pascal is hilarious. Sure, they're not superstars, but they're 2 of the only players on the team doing much of anything. You guys want Freddy to pass it to Baynes? Maybe Yuta? Stanley Johnson? Who should be involving more?

[KeonClark]

This season has just become one giant April Fool's joke. 1 win in March and that was against the Nuggets, which was a farewell game for Lowry and Norm. This team really has no pride anymore.. but it really doesn't matter.

I hope to hell that draft pick we get ends up being a difference maker, and not some role player.

Trent was really good. Fred was nice defensively.. boxscore shows 4 blocks and 5 steals. I mean our 5'11 point guard almost got a 5x5 (off by one board, and one block). But yeah, just kept getting stuffed. Pascal was beyond terrible last night. I have no idea what is wrong with him. Just hope to hell we can use that covid excuse on him. He got to the line 10 times, but 2-9 and just meh production. Not good enough. OG was okay. I thought he could actually play better.. we could have used more help on the boards from him.

I mean we always complain about Baynes and we should.. but OG/Pascal should be able to box out and grab rebounds. I mean they both have size and length and quickness. It's about boxing out your man and going strong for rebounds.

We got out rebounded 64 to 35. That's insanity. How much effort is needed to play great defense, have the opponent put up a bad shot, only have to do it all over again because you didn't seal your possession.. but now everyone is out of position and you're giving up an easy dunk, lay up or 3pt shot.

Time and time and time again.. that's what has happened to this team. And it's with everyone.. from blatant tanking teams to good teams.

This is such an epic tank. Have to put this Raptor season in a museum. To go from the second best team in the league to this... after just losing Gasol (who the Lakers don't want to use anymore) and Serge Ibaka who we all love, but really, Serge Ibaka is the difference between a #2 overall and a tankfest? Might has well give him the MVP trophy right now.

We are basically tied for 6th in the draft right now, and the Wizards have 2 games in hand. Cavs are only 0.5 games out and also have a game in hand.

Getting to 5th seems like a possibility.

It's pretty clear this isn't a systems issue, the team gave up. Covid knocked all the winds out of our sails. After a couple bad losses returning, they gave up. And then yeah they showed up for the Denver game like you said, but management did nothing to help the team, shipped out a brother that was red hot, and after they all emotionally prepared to say goodbye to Kyle, left him lingering around with really very little motivation.

You can tell, we're losing loose ball battles, the absolute rebound discrepancy which at that point comes down to effort, the defense has been abysmal.

The players have packed it in, and it's getting ugly. Don't be surprised if we get some more locker room drama, they still have to show up and do their jobs for another what 2 months? This isn't wrapping up anytime soon.

[DanH]

Yeah, not having a C certainly shows the value Gasol and Serge provided as a tandem. Baynes being terrible and Stan getting regular run are both things that have really hurt the team.
But a lot of the difference has nothing to do with the players on the court.​​​​​ Being shunted off the Tampa last minute and no training camp led to that terrible start. They finally get on track and then COVID hits and they are in a deep hole and then they are trying to get their legs under them and losing and losing and losing, all while fighting the aftereffects of COVID, guys still missing games in Lowry and OG, even more guys in COVID protocols cutting into the already abysmal depth... Throw in a few games where they actually play well and just fall short because the other side shoots the lights out. And it's just an awful place to be as a team. The losses really pile up as guys stop believing they can win.

[iblastoff]

Throwing it on Freddy and Pascal is hilarious. Sure, they're not superstars, but they're 2 of the only players on the team doing much of anything. You guys want Freddy to pass it to Baynes? Maybe Yuta? Stanley Johnson? Who should be involving more?

totally agree. i get everyone is emotional and mad, including me. but all of a sudden turning on vanvleet and blaming him for shit is just hilarious.

its always the same shit. whenever pascal has a good game, his usual haters are silent in a thread. whenever he plays like shit, theyre all "OMG I TOLD YOU HE SUCKS!"

[S.R.]

FVV doesn't suck, he's very good. Siakam/OG/Fred are pretty well all plus players, even when you see their weak points or they have an off shooting night, because they're all damn good defensively and skilled overall.

Fred's just got the two things to work on I think, his shooting efficiency and creating offence. And it becomes an issue in later playoff rounds, it already has the last two postseasons and it will again until he develops in those areas. You just hope he does.

Siakam I've seen enough flashes. It's a shit season, they're tanking, I don't think Bubble Siakam is permanent, he's looked good at times the last couple months. Everything just keeps getting thrown off kilter and he's an emotional player who knows they aren't really playing for anything now. It shows up for several guys with some out of focus games, getting out rebounded (all effort), etc. I don't really care because we've seen what they can do over the past couple years and because it actually benefits the team to lose right now.

A lot of teams play like crap in this position at this time of year. It's not an indictment on anybody.

[inthepaint]

Throwing it on Freddy and Pascal is hilarious. Sure, they're not superstars, but they're 2 of the only players on the team doing much of anything. You guys want Freddy to pass it to Baynes? Maybe Yuta? Stanley Johnson? Who should be involving more?

Yeah the problem is not with the core. No one is perfect but: Fred is in all-defence nba conversation, and is a good shooter with range; Siakam is no all-star, but he's a good nba starter with good defence that will give you 20/5/5; and OG is a heck of a 3&D player which every teams needs. All 3 are rotation champions with tons of playoff experience, and not 30 yet.

The thing is, it's a team sport. You need depth. Look no further than Lebron's first Lakers team (the first time in years Lebron didn't make the playoffs). That's one of the best players in history that couldn't make the playoffs because his team had no depth. Doesn't matter who you are, it takes a team. So the solution is: don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but recognize this season is no longer salvageable. Tank it, start to recover your depth from the draft (and from a Kyle trade if an offer makes sense), and treat it as a really extended training camp for the next one. Priority now should be for guys to expand/work on their game, more so than win games.

[GLF]

Anyone hating on Pascal and Fred right now, two guys who are still trying to recover from Covid (Fred said as much in his post game interview last night) needs help. Do you see the lack of talent on this team right now!? Only a superstar caliber player would be able to look good with some of the guys Pascal and Fred have to play alongside. And we've all agreed neither Pascal nor Fred are superstars and that's okay.

Do you know how HARD a guy like Baynes makes our offence. How HARD he makes it to navigate pick and rolls. Fred already isn't the greatest in the pick and roll (he has improved though) and Baynes makes it 10 times harder for him because no one guards Baynes. You also can't pass it to him because he can't finish and he can't shoot. Baynes is FOREVER getting into Pascal way when he drives. Its actually hilarious how bad Baynes is. He plays like a guy who knows nothing about basketball. It's crazy.

Then right now they have to play alongside guys like Yuta, Stanley, Bembry, Watson etc. All guys who have been third stringers and should still be third stringers in the NBA. Well Bembry and Watson actually aren't bad but they aren't even playing! Then Gary Trent is still very new and OG still needs people to create for him, so it's rough.

Trust me, let these guys fully heal from Covid, give them another offseason of training, give them a proper training camp and bring in a starting caliber C and a much better bench and our core of OG, Fred, Pascal and Trent will be just fine with or without Kyle. This season was always fake. Everything that could have went wrong this season went wrong. Let's get a top 5 pick hopefully and get back to winning next season. I could never judge these guys based off this season with this lack of talent around them.

[GLF]

Yeah the problem is not with the core. No one is perfect but: Fred is in all-defence nba conversation, and is a good shooter with range; Siakam is no all-star, but he's a good nba starter with good defence that will give you 20/5/5; and OG is a heck of a 3&D player which every teams needs. All 3 are rotation champions with tons of playoff experience, and not 30 yet.

The thing is, it's a team sport. You need depth. Look no further than Lebron's first Lakers team (the first time in years Lebron didn't make the playoffs). That's one of the best players in history that couldn't make the playoffs because his team had no depth. Doesn't matter who you are, it takes a team. So the solution is: don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but recognize this season is no longer salvageable. Tank it, start to recover your depth from the draft (and from a Kyle trade if an offer makes sense), and treat it as a really extended training camp for the next one. Priority now should be for guys to expand/work on their game, more so than win games.

Thank you! We can also get some depth through free agency because we'll have some cap space. Our core is good. We will be fine. We just need better depth and better talent surrounding them. That's all.

[Rudy Bargnani]

I think also by all accountS Serge and Gasol were great teammates and leaders in the locker room too. We clearly miss having a center—that is for sure. But some of the other drama—-slow starts, losing close games, Siakam snapping at coach, could all probably be addressed by a having a bit more leadership or veteran presence on the team. If Kyle goes next year gonna need Siakam and Fred to step into those roles.

[KeonClark]

I think also by all accountS Serge and Gasol were great teammates and leaders in the locker room too. We clearly miss having a center—that is for sure. But some of the other drama—-slow starts, losing close games, Siakam snapping at coach, could all probably be addressed by a having a bit more leadership or veteran presence on the team. If Kyle goes next year gonna need Siakam and Fred to step into those roles.

From an outsiders perspective, siakam has zero leadership qualities. And that's fine, most people dont.

[golden]

I think also by all accountS Serge and Gasol were great teammates and leaders in the locker room too. We clearly miss having a center—that is for sure. But some of the other drama—-slow starts, losing close games, Siakam snapping at coach, could all probably be addressed by a having a bit more leadership or veteran presence on the team. If Kyle goes next year gonna need Siakam and Fred to step into those roles.

I think Serge's impact on the team culture was massively understated. Why MaFuzzy.... why?