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Game 55 Toronto Raptors vs Atlanta Hawks - 7:30 PM EST Apr 13/21

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  • #76
    slaw wrote: View Post

    See, when I think average NBA PF starters I think: old Kevin Love, Markkanen, Morris, Thad Young, Mikal Bridges, Trevor Ariza, Kyle Anderson... guys like that.

    To me, Siakam is easily a top 5 PF in the league. I'd go Davis, Zion, and then Randle, Harris, Sabonis, Siakam in some order. Personally, I'd put him #3 or #4 but opinions vary.

    KeonClark wrote: View Post

    Yeah, Pascal probably ranks somewhere in the 30s for best basketball player. There's 150 starters, and roughly 300 rotation guys, and then 450 total. I'd call guys 100 through 200 the "average player". Pascal's in probably the top 8 percentile of the league. He's not elite, but he's very good, a "star player" in so much as a Brandon Ingram or a CJ McCollum or a Khris Middleton is a star player, and he's definitely a building block towards the promised land.
    Fair takes. "Starters" is a very large group. Within it there are actually many that are not that good, some "in between", and some that are that are quite impactful. Siakam is in (or at least very close to) the latter.
    2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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    • #77
      G__Deane wrote: View Post
      Everybody has agreed that Pascal is not the Alpha to lead a team to a chip
      Most fans agree that he could still be a valuable Robin if we can land his Batman
      Rational fans know landing an elite player here as a FA (never) or in a trade (once in a few decades) is extremely rare

      Hanging around and stockpiling assets for some future perfect storm elite-injured-player-wants-out-and-his-team-will-sell-low for the best middling offer and we're the only one offering it.....if it makes you feel better, great. But far more likely we slide back into a dog fight for home court as a 4-10 seed for the foreseeable future.

      Or just keep repeating "trust in Masai" over and over to let you sleep at night.

      It just is what it is.
      So what would you do if you were Masai? I see the slighting and the lamenting but I didn't see a preferred solution/alternative pointed out.
      2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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      • #78
        inthepaint wrote: View Post

        So what would you do if you were Masai? I see the slighting and the lamenting but I didn't see a preferred solution/alternative pointed out.
        I would have traded Kyle half way through the season or earlier and said so.
        I think Masai put too much faith in The Alphabet when we were supposed to have some sort of inside edge to at least get a fair look in his FA. I would have played that card too but I don't have a direct line to him and his family . He severely misjudged.
        I wouldn't have dropped Len for zip/nothing/nada.
        I would have added a decent centre when Len was dropped for zip/nothing/nada and Baynes continued to not work out.
        I like to think that I would have found a deal for Kyle at the deadline.....no idea what was offered and you need two to trade but it was a fail.

        PS
        Not really fans job to have all the answers .... you can still be a critical thinker (especially with the advantage of hindsight ) without necessarily being credentialed Pres/GM material. It's easy to say "what would you have done" but we're not paid millions of dollars per year with decades of NBA experience to figure these things out.

        But are you entirely happy with the way things have played out this season? What would you have done, nothing?

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        • #79
          G__Deane wrote: View Post

          I would have traded Kyle half way through the season or earlier and said so.
          I think Masai put too much faith in The Alphabet when we were supposed to have some sort of inside edge to at least get a fair look in his FA. I would have played that card too but I don't have a direct line to him and his family . He severely misjudged.
          I wouldn't have dropped Len for zip/nothing/nada.
          I would have added a decent centre when Len was dropped for zip/nothing/nada and Baynes continued to not work out.
          I like to think that I would have found a deal for Kyle at the deadline.....no idea what was offered and you need two to trade but it was a fail.

          PS
          Not really fans job to have all the answers .... you can still be a critical thinker (especially with the advantage of hindsight ) without necessarily being credentialed Pres/GM material. It's easy to say "what would you have done" but we're not paid millions of dollars per year with decades of NBA experience to figure these things out.

          But are you entirely happy with the way things have played out this season? What would you have done, nothing?
          My main gripe about this season is that guys like Flynn and Boucher played way too little compared to guys like Baynes and Stan and Davis. This season was always going to be a holding pattern season and there is no problem with that, but ideally you extract some value in development throughout the entire season and otherwise figure out how far you can stretch guys' roles.

          In terms of management, sure, Baynes was useless, but he wasn't last season, so that's a little bit unlucky, and with sub-MLE money you are not getting the pick of the litter anyway, and the move away from Ibaka or Gasol seems intentional rather than driven by the Giannis stuff, removing the security blanket for the core guys to see whether they bent or broke. The Norm trade was an absolute steal (looked good at the time and far better since) and the Birch pickup was not possible until recently.

          As for your rational take that the trade for a star player happens once in a few decades, it also has happened for us once in the handful of years with competent management in place. There's a reason people trust in Masai, and it's not because he's been terrible since he got here.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • #80
            DanH wrote: View Post

            My main gripe about this season is that guys like Flynn and Boucher played way too little compared to guys like Baynes and Stan and Davis. This season was always going to be a holding pattern season and there is no problem with that, but ideally you extract some value in development throughout the entire season and otherwise figure out how far you can stretch guys' roles.

            In terms of management, sure, Baynes was useless, but he wasn't last season, so that's a little bit unlucky, and with sub-MLE money you are not getting the pick of the litter anyway, and the move away from Ibaka or Gasol seems intentional rather than driven by the Giannis stuff, removing the security blanket for the core guys to see whether they bent or broke. The Norm trade was an absolute steal (looked good at the time and far better since) and the Birch pickup was not possible until recently.

            As for your rational take that the trade for a star player happens once in a few decades, it also has happened for us once in the handful of years with competent management in place. There's a reason people trust in Masai, and it's not because he's been terrible since he got here.
            Hey I thought Baynes would be better than decent here so what do I know?
            I thought Davis should have been given more rope (aside from off court issues which may have been the main problem)

            "it also has happened for us once in the handful of years with competent management in place"
            Hey it's happened every time there was a rainy Friday where my dog crapped twice on his morning walk and we saw the neighbour taking out his garbage while ..... the point is it's super rare and there's no guarantee even on the extremely rare even of trading for an injured disgruntled star without gutting your roster so the while "stockpile assets and get ready to pounce again" is kind of hollow.

            I just don't want to continue to be a destination where great players don't want to land. Even after a chip, that didn't change....you can sometimes get better through shrewd trades, you can try to develop a strong core through smart drafting. But you need a stud or two to win it all, that much should be a given and I'll keep questioning how we're going to get there because I'm not satisfied (as a lot fo Toronto fans are) with playoffs (as a flippin' GOAL now!) followed by first or second round knockoout.

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            • #81
              G__Deane wrote: View Post
              ...I just don't want to continue to be a destination where great players don't want to land. Even after a chip, that didn't change.....
              Just wonder what you think would make great players want to land here? About 25% of the teams are located in cities with a better (warmer) climate. About 30% of the teams are located in cities that are constantly seen in movies, TV and even books and magazines. The US is probably a better location for endorsement deals. If you are a great player you have a much better chance of being able to cavort with international celebrities in the US than in Canada. And most of the great players are Americans, with American friends, buddies, and families that are frequently only a few hours flight away with no border crossings.

              So what would make a free agent great player come here? What is it you think needs to be done? Masai and Bobby had a team that needed one Alpha player. And the only one that would come was a disgruntled player who was traded to a destination not of his liking. And he got a ring out of it. Then he bails and the same team, minus one alpha player finishes 2nd in the league. Think of all the great players who could have signed with the Raptors after the team had proven themselves, or the players that could have demanded a trade at the trade deadline. Why didn't they come?

              So what is your solution? You agree that "you need a stud or two to win it all, that much should be a given" but apparently, none are going to come willingly. Maybe for all the reasons I listed above. What do you expect the FO and/or players to do? You can be pissed off the sun rises in the east and goes down in the west, simply complaining about it won't change anything...Unless you find pointless ranting is equivalent to therapy. All the FO can do is "stockpile assets and get ready to pounce again," and provide high-level play with high character and hard-working players who like the approach and the culture and love the fans.

              Nothing wrong with wanting more, but the sun rises in the east.

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