slaw wrote:
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Game 55 Toronto Raptors vs Atlanta Hawks - 7:30 PM EST Apr 13/21
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golden wrote: View Post
Another bright spot is Nurse allowing Flynn to play through his mistakes so he can develop. Sure, that's only of necessity and because he has no choice, but still progress.
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A.I wrote: View Post
I mean thats how it starts out. On a Playoff team (Thats where we thought this team would be early in the season) a 29th pick rookie likely won't get a lot of playing time, especially when he is playing behind 2 high quality PGs. One of them is injured, the other is getting rest and the team isn't in the Playoffs, might as well give your young players development time.
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slaw wrote: View Post
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point but is it that 30/7/6 on 68% shooting is a decent performance for an average NBA starter? If so, what do you consider a decent performance from an elite player?
no one care's about the enormous burden he carries offensively on a nightly basis as the primary focus of the defense and only player on this team remotely capable of generating his own offense.
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inthepaint wrote: View PostThis was a very good game for Siakam. 30/7/6 with 68% shooting and very good defence. He needed help on this one and didn't get it, aside some heroics from Flynn late. There have been plenty of chances to pick on Siakam this year but this game wasn't one of them.
He seems to be plateauing at that Derozan level of frustration from fans now, who no matter how much he tried, was not Vince.9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum
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golden wrote: View Post
Sure, but that's not always how it starts out. Pascal (27th), Delon (20th), OG (23rd), Norm (46th), Fred (undrafted) all got playing time while were a playoff team, winning 50 games a year.
Pascal started a lot of games as a rookie because there was no one else who should start until we traded for Serge, same goes for OG, he started at SF as a rookie and his backup was CJ Miles. Norm was in the same position as Flynn, barely got minutes and many DNPs until later in the season. Fred played 37 games and Wright played 27 games as a rookie and had many DNPs because Kyle and Joseph were the main PGs, they started getting more minutes in their sophomore seasons and beyond.
Those were all under Casey, who you consider a better player development coach than Nurse. 2 rookies started out of necessity. The other 3 had to work their way up like Flynn is currently doing.
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KeonClark wrote: View Post
Siakam reached his glass ceiling in raptor land (and probably the NBA), and now no matter what kind of stats he puts up, most will just stare at his clutch minutes, and his shortcomings, because he's not Kawhi.
He seems to be plateauing at that Derozan level of frustration from fans now, who no matter how much he tried, was not Vince.
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golden wrote: View Post
Sure, but that's not always how it starts out. Pascal (27th), Delon (20th), OG (23rd), Norm (46th) & Fred (undrafted) all got playing time while were a playoff team, winning 50 games a year.
OG they clearly thought should have been a top 10 pick (and he was projected as such until he got hurt) and treated him as such. Helps that they've never had a starting quality SF for like a decade before he got here.
Delon got into 27 games his rookie year to the tune of 9 MPG.
Norm did get 15 minutes off the bench in 50 games in 15-16. Though again, Carroll missing most of the season really helped him there, his 49 games are almost diametrically opposed to the ones Carroll played in. Key injury opens up spot for rookie to get playing time.
Fred got into 37 games as a rookie but for less than 8 minutes a night. He only had 10 games where he played 10+ minutes, again, when the team was injured and minutes opened up for him. Hardly the kind of run you are talking about here, mostly just a few minutes here and there in garbage time.
Would I have liked Flynn to get more run early in the season? I think I was pretty open about that. Of course. He should have been a fixture in the rotation the whole time, not for development purposes but because he was likely to be a more effective player right away than Stan or McCaw or Davis (once he established the brutal effort he was providing), never mind after a half season of development.
But this is very much in line with how the Raptors have developed most of the guys in their system, with high picks (and effective high picks) like JV and OG the only real exceptions.
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KeonClark wrote: View Post
Siakam reached his glass ceiling in raptor land (and probably the NBA), and now no matter what kind of stats he puts up, most will just stare at his clutch minutes, and his shortcomings, because he's not Kawhi.
He seems to be plateauing at that Derozan level of frustration from fans now, who no matter how much he tried, was not Vince.
He won't carry a team to a chip as the main player, but on the other hand he's a solid 2-way player that can put up numbers and happens to have a ton of playoff and championship experience. You want those guys on your team. To me we gotta start normalizing our view of him. He's not Kawhi, but he's not DeMarre Carroll either. There's a massive universe in between, and he's in it, even though many people want/wanted to paint him as one of the other.
To some extent, that's also true for Fred. To me personally, they're not untouchable in trades, but we ideally keep them until they're like 32/33 - and through that window, try to add a high-power wing to them on the draft, which will elevate their game and take the team into finals territory again (as we've seen before).
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chris wrote: View Post
yes that's my point, made facetiously, since the most charitable characterization of his value as a player i've seen on this board is "average NBA starter" (the other valuations being outright shitting on him).
no one care's about the enormous burden he carries offensively on a nightly basis as the primary focus of the defense and only player on this team remotely capable of generating his own offense.
Agreed that the criticism of Siakam in Raptorland is becoming a little much.
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inthepaint wrote: View Post
Yeah people's expectations and goal posts for Siakam are all over the map and morphing almost game by game. I feel he is indeed an average Nba starter (nothing wrong with that) that will sometimes put above average games (like this one at 30/7/6 on good efficiency and good defence), and sometimes below average games. That's the reality for pretty much every player with high usage% like him.
To me, Siakam is easily a top 5 PF in the league. I'd go Davis, Zion, and then Randle, Harris, Sabonis, Siakam in some order. Personally, I'd put him #3 or #4 but opinions vary.
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slaw wrote: View Post
See, when I think average NBA PF starters I think: old Kevin Love, Markkanen, Morris, Thad Young, Mikal Bridges, Trevor Ariza, Kyle Anderson... guys like that.
To me, Siakam is easily a top 5 PF in the league. I'd go Davis, Zion, and then Randle, Harris, Sabonis, Siakam in some order. Personally, I'd put him #3 or #4 but opinions vary.
9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum
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Everybody has agreed that Pascal is not the Alpha to lead a team to a chip
Most fans agree that he could still be a valuable Robin if we can land his Batman
Rational fans know landing an elite player here as a FA (never) or in a trade (once in a few decades) is extremely rare
Hanging around and stockpiling assets for some future perfect storm elite-injured-player-wants-out-and-his-team-will-sell-low for the best middling offer and we're the only one offering it.....if it makes you feel better, great. But far more likely we slide back into a dog fight for home court as a 4-10 seed for the foreseeable future.
Or just keep repeating "trust in Masai" over and over to let you sleep at night.
It just is what it is.
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