Game 55 Toronto Raptors vs Atlanta Hawks - 7:30 PM EST Apr 13/21

[chris]

What do you expect from Siakam? You criticize him for avoiding getting his own in the 4th (whatever that means) and then criticize him for forcing a shot instead of a pass! He had 30/7/6 on 13/19 shooting in 40 minutes. Yeah, he had 5 TOs but who else is going to initiate offense on the floor? Rodney Hood? This team lacks firepower when it is at full strength, let alone now when they are running out 3-4 guys who should be in the GLeague.

a decent performance for an average starter

[A.I]

Another bright spot is Nurse allowing Flynn to play through his mistakes so he can develop. Sure, that's only of necessity and because he has no choice, but still progress.

I mean thats how it starts out. On a Playoff team (Thats where we thought this team would be early in the season) a 29th pick rookie likely won't get a lot of playing time, especially when he is playing behind 2 high quality PGs. One of them is injured, the other is getting rest and the team isn't in the Playoffs, might as well give your young players development time.

[inthepaint]

This was a very good game for Siakam. 30/7/6 with 68% shooting and very good defence. He needed help on this one and didn't get it, aside some heroics from Flynn late. There have been plenty of chances to pick on Siakam this year but this game wasn't one of them.

[slaw]

a decent performance for an average starter

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point but is it that 30/7/6 on 68% shooting is a decent performance for an average NBA starter? If so, what do you consider a decent performance from an elite player?

[golden]

I mean thats how it starts out. On a Playoff team (Thats where we thought this team would be early in the season) a 29th pick rookie likely won't get a lot of playing time, especially when he is playing behind 2 high quality PGs. One of them is injured, the other is getting rest and the team isn't in the Playoffs, might as well give your young players development time.

Sure, but that's not always how it starts out. Pascal (27th), Delon (20th), OG (23rd), Norm (46th) & Fred (undrafted) all got playing time while were a playoff team, winning 50 games a year.

[chris]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point but is it that 30/7/6 on 68% shooting is a decent performance for an average NBA starter? If so, what do you consider a decent performance from an elite player?

yes that's my point, made facetiously, since the most charitable characterization of his value as a player i've seen on this board is "average NBA starter" (the other valuations being outright shitting on him).

no one care's about the enormous burden he carries offensively on a nightly basis as the primary focus of the defense and only player on this team remotely capable of generating his own offense.

[KeonClark]

This was a very good game for Siakam. 30/7/6 with 68% shooting and very good defence. He needed help on this one and didn't get it, aside some heroics from Flynn late. There have been plenty of chances to pick on Siakam this year but this game wasn't one of them.

Siakam reached his glass ceiling in raptor land (and probably the NBA), and now no matter what kind of stats he puts up, most will just stare at his clutch minutes, and his shortcomings, because he's not Kawhi.

He seems to be plateauing at that Derozan level of frustration from fans now, who no matter how much he tried, was not Vince.

[A.I]

Sure, but that's not always how it starts out. Pascal (27th), Delon (20th), OG (23rd), Norm (46th), Fred (undrafted) all got playing time while were a playoff team, winning 50 games a year.

Really? Pascal averaged 15 mins as a rookie, OG averaged 20, Poeltl averaged 11, Fred averaged 8, Wright averaged 8 and Powell averaged 15. Again, Flynn is playing behind Kyle and Fred, while Fred starts at SG, when Kyle sits, he takes some of the PG minutes. As you said sometimes rookies get minutes out of necessity and those necessities differ depending on the situation.

Pascal started a lot of games as a rookie because there was no one else who should start until we traded for Serge, same goes for OG, he started at SF as a rookie and his backup was CJ Miles. Norm was in the same position as Flynn, barely got minutes and many DNPs until later in the season. Fred played 37 games and Wright played 27 games as a rookie and had many DNPs because Kyle and Joseph were the main PGs, they started getting more minutes in their sophomore seasons and beyond.

Those were all under Casey, who you consider a better player development coach than Nurse. 2 rookies started out of necessity. The other 3 had to work their way up like Flynn is currently doing.

[A.I]

Siakam reached his glass ceiling in raptor land (and probably the NBA), and now no matter what kind of stats he puts up, most will just stare at his clutch minutes, and his shortcomings, because he's not Kawhi.

He seems to be plateauing at that Derozan level of frustration from fans now, who no matter how much he tried, was not Vince.

Took many years before people started getting frustrated with Derozan. Only took Pascal 1 and a half seasons after Kawhi. The first season went into hiatus due to COVID and the second season he is playing in Tampa during a pandemic.

[DanH]

Sure, but that's not always how it starts out. Pascal (27th), Delon (20th), OG (23rd), Norm (46th) & Fred (undrafted) all got playing time while were a playoff team, winning 50 games a year.

Pascal was lucky enough to have Jared Sullinger be hurt all year right out of training camp, so he got 15 minutes a game, and was eventually demoted out of the lineup entirely once they traded for Serge so he could go develop in the G-League. Very much like Flynn is getting minutes now that the guards in front of him are missing time.

OG they clearly thought should have been a top 10 pick (and he was projected as such until he got hurt) and treated him as such. Helps that they've never had a starting quality SF for like a decade before he got here.

Delon got into 27 games his rookie year to the tune of 9 MPG.

Norm did get 15 minutes off the bench in 50 games in 15-16. Though again, Carroll missing most of the season really helped him there, his 49 games are almost diametrically opposed to the ones Carroll played in. Key injury opens up spot for rookie to get playing time.

Fred got into 37 games as a rookie but for less than 8 minutes a night. He only had 10 games where he played 10+ minutes, again, when the team was injured and minutes opened up for him. Hardly the kind of run you are talking about here, mostly just a few minutes here and there in garbage time.

Would I have liked Flynn to get more run early in the season? I think I was pretty open about that. Of course. He should have been a fixture in the rotation the whole time, not for development purposes but because he was likely to be a more effective player right away than Stan or McCaw or Davis (once he established the brutal effort he was providing), never mind after a half season of development.

But this is very much in line with how the Raptors have developed most of the guys in their system, with high picks (and effective high picks) like JV and OG the only real exceptions.

[inthepaint]

Siakam reached his glass ceiling in raptor land (and probably the NBA), and now no matter what kind of stats he puts up, most will just stare at his clutch minutes, and his shortcomings, because he's not Kawhi.

He seems to be plateauing at that Derozan level of frustration from fans now, who no matter how much he tried, was not Vince.

Yeah people's expectations and goal posts for Siakam are all over the map and morphing almost game by game. I feel he is indeed an average Nba starter (nothing wrong with that) that will sometimes put above average games (like this one at 30/7/6 on good efficiency and good defence), and sometimes below average games. That's the reality for pretty much every player with high usage% like him.

He won't carry a team to a chip as the main player, but on the other hand he's a solid 2-way player that can put up numbers and happens to have a ton of playoff and championship experience. You want those guys on your team. To me we gotta start normalizing our view of him. He's not Kawhi, but he's not DeMarre Carroll either. There's a massive universe in between, and he's in it, even though many people want/wanted to paint him as one of the other.

To some extent, that's also true for Fred. To me personally, they're not untouchable in trades, but we ideally keep them until they're like 32/33 - and through that window, try to add a high-power wing to them on the draft, which will elevate their game and take the team into finals territory again (as we've seen before).

[slaw]

yes that's my point, made facetiously, since the most charitable characterization of his value as a player i've seen on this board is "average NBA starter" (the other valuations being outright shitting on him).

no one care's about the enormous burden he carries offensively on a nightly basis as the primary focus of the defense and only player on this team remotely capable of generating his own offense.

Okay, sarcasm often doesn't translate very well online.

Agreed that the criticism of Siakam in Raptorland is becoming a little much.

[slaw]

Yeah people's expectations and goal posts for Siakam are all over the map and morphing almost game by game. I feel he is indeed an average Nba starter (nothing wrong with that) that will sometimes put above average games (like this one at 30/7/6 on good efficiency and good defence), and sometimes below average games. That's the reality for pretty much every player with high usage% like him.

See, when I think average NBA PF starters I think: old Kevin Love, Markkanen, Morris, Thad Young, Mikal Bridges, Trevor Ariza, Kyle Anderson... guys like that.

To me, Siakam is easily a top 5 PF in the league. I'd go Davis, Zion, and then Randle, Harris, Sabonis, Siakam in some order. Personally, I'd put him #3 or #4 but opinions vary.

[KeonClark]

See, when I think average NBA PF starters I think: old Kevin Love, Markkanen, Morris, Thad Young, Mikal Bridges, Trevor Ariza, Kyle Anderson... guys like that.

To me, Siakam is easily a top 5 PF in the league. I'd go Davis, Zion, and then Randle, Harris, Sabonis, Siakam in some order. Personally, I'd put him #3 or #4 but opinions vary.

Yeah, Pascal probably ranks somewhere in the 30s for best basketball player. There's 150 starters, and roughly 300 rotation guys, and then 450 total. I'd call guys 100 through 200 the "average player". Pascal's in probably the top 8 percentile of the league. He's not elite, but he's very good, a "star player" in so much as a Brandon Ingram or a CJ McCollum or a Khris Middleton is a star player, and he's definitely a building block towards the promised land.

[G__Deane]

Everybody has agreed that Pascal is not the Alpha to lead a team to a chip
Most fans agree that he could still be a valuable Robin if we can land his Batman
Rational fans know landing an elite player here as a FA (never) or in a trade (once in a few decades) is extremely rare

Hanging around and stockpiling assets for some future perfect storm elite-injured-player-wants-out-and-his-team-will-sell-low for the best middling offer and we're the only one offering it.....if it makes you feel better, great. But far more likely we slide back into a dog fight for home court as a 4-10 seed for the foreseeable future.

Or just keep repeating "trust in Masai" over and over to let you sleep at night.

It just is what it is.