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'21-'22 Roster Construction

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  • It's next to impossible to win (a title) with a non-shooting starting PG like Simmons in today's league. Many offence sets rely on at least the threat of the PG getting off a shot after on-ball/offball actions. You can't survive deep in the playoffs playing 4-on-5 on half-court offence, relying just on defence and transition.

    Simmons doesn't want to shoot. You could try to hide him at the C spot like a non-shooting defensive anchor like Gobert, but Simmons doesn't want to do that either, plus they have an MVP caliber player at the C already in Embiid. The fit between those two is horrible, and many Philly fans have known that for years. Embiid needs space to operate inside, which is provided by a pick and roll maestro that is also threat to shoot (sometimes from really deep) like Lowry. Instead, he's got the opposite in Simmons: A non-shooting, non-pick roll "point guard".

    Best case scenario for a win-win-win trade would be Simmons to a wide space team that needs defence (eg Portland), Lowry to Philly, and assets from the 3rd team to us. Hard to pull it off though.
    2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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    • inthepaint wrote: View Post
      It's next to impossible to win (a title) with a non-shooting starting PG like Simmons in today's league. Many offence sets rely on at least the threat of the PG getting off a shot after on-ball/offball actions. You can't survive deep in the playoffs playing 4-on-5 on half-court offence, relying just on defence and transition.

      Simmons doesn't want to shoot. You could try to hide him at the C spot like a non-shooting defensive anchor like Gobert, but Simmons doesn't want to do that either, plus they have an MVP caliber player at the C already in Embiid. The fit between those two is horrible, and many Philly fans have known that for years. Embiid needs space to operate inside, which is provided by a pick and roll maestro that is also threat to shoot (sometimes from really deep) like Lowry. Instead, he's got the opposite in Simmons: A non-shooting, non-pick roll "point guard".

      Best case scenario for a win-win-win trade would be Simmons to a wide space team that needs defence (eg Portland), Lowry to Philly, and assets from the 3rd team to us. Hard to pull it off though.
      Why not just play Simmons off ball like a normal SF/PF and let Lowry be the PG? I'm assuming that would have been the plan had they acquired Lowry at the trade deadline. You don't have to be the PG to effect the game with great passing, see Marc Gasol as a perfect example.

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      • inthepaint wrote: View Post
        It's next to impossible to win (a title) with a non-shooting starting PG like Simmons in today's league. Many offence sets rely on at least the threat of the PG getting off a shot after on-ball/offball actions. You can't survive deep in the playoffs playing 4-on-5 on half-court offence, relying just on defence and transition.

        Simmons doesn't want to shoot. You could try to hide him at the C spot like a non-shooting defensive anchor like Gobert, but Simmons doesn't want to do that either, plus they have an MVP caliber player at the C already in Embiid. The fit between those two is horrible, and many Philly fans have known that for years. Embiid needs space to operate inside, which is provided by a pick and roll maestro that is also threat to shoot (sometimes from really deep) like Lowry. Instead, he's got the opposite in Simmons: A non-shooting, non-pick roll "point guard".

        Best case scenario for a win-win-win trade would be Simmons to a wide space team that needs defence (eg Portland), Lowry to Philly, and assets from the 3rd team to us. Hard to pull it off though.
        I personally think Philly has little choice but to move Simmons.

        The mob so to speak has turned on him in Philly and thats not going to be easy or perhaps even possible to overcome. The fans and local media are all over this guy even a couple weeks after they flamed out. Its unlikely to change. The Marner hate has subsided in Toronto. If anything the Simmons hate in Philly has increased.
        To throw even more gasoline on the fire In the heat of the moment both Embiid and the coach both pointed fingers at Simons. Sure they walked it back but Simons isn't likely to remember that. Simons will do things like showing up at Wimbleton with his new girlfriend to egg on Philly FO tthat he is simply paying lip service to his in the gym to shoot all summer to get better.
        The talent is there.. the less than contrite attitude is a risk for the team taking him on.

        I think he would be a great 5 in our offence.
        The price might be Mr. Raptor and Flynn and a 2ndRP for Simmons a late FRP and one of Korkmaz (3 point shooter on the wing) or Maxey or TBD.

        As we grind closer to FA on August 2 we will see what the rumour mill holds for one Ben Simmons.
        There are more than a few teams that will want in on the opportunity to bid for Simons.
        Last edited by Demographic Shift; Wed Jul 7, 2021, 01:52 PM.
        And with the 4th overall pick the Toronto Raptors select..... Scottie Barnes.

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        • Primer wrote: View Post

          Why not just play Simmons off ball like a normal SF/PF and let Lowry be the PG? I'm assuming that would have been the plan had they acquired Lowry at the trade deadline. You don't have to be the PG to effect the game with great passing, see Marc Gasol as a perfect example.
          Where do you put Simmons off-ball, though? Usually, you're looking for floor spacers to give the ball-handler more room to operate. If you put him in the corner, then his man will sag off and disrupt the passing lanes, double team the ball handler or help clog the paint. If you put Simmons in the dunker's spot, then you're turning Embiid into a floor spacer, above the break or in the corner. That's a waste of Embiid.

          Either Simmons or Embiid will be sub-optimized in almost any scenario... with or without Lowry. That's always been, and still is, the crux of the problem. To fully optimize Simmons, he should have the ball in his hands and be surround by 4 floor spacers like Giannis.... but again, that turns Embiid into a Brook Lopez type of stretch 5 most of the time.

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          • Primer wrote: View Post

            Why not just play Simmons off ball like a normal SF/PF and let Lowry be the PG? I'm assuming that would have been the plan had they acquired Lowry at the trade deadline. You don't have to be the PG to effect the game with great passing, see Marc Gasol as a perfect example.
            Yeah that would work too. If you're a non-shooting wing you're still hurting the spacing but at least you're not directly running the 1-5 pick and roll with a non-shooting "guard". The ability to pass means little if the defence knows you won't shoot though. You could be a great passer (eg Gasol), but if you don't shoot/shoot poorly, they'll just sag off you and pack the paint, making it difficult for everyone else to find space and shrinking the floor. Simmons wants to play point guard though, he wants to run the offence.
            Last edited by inthepaint; Wed Jul 7, 2021, 02:01 PM.
            2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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            • Primer wrote: View Post

              Why not just play Simmons off ball like a normal SF/PF and let Lowry be the PG? I'm assuming that would have been the plan had they acquired Lowry at the trade deadline. You don't have to be the PG to effect the game with great passing, see Marc Gasol as a perfect example.
              That's kinda what they did in the playoffs when Butler was there. Butler was the key guy on the ball but Simmons was largely ineffective in the Toronto series playing that way. Thing is, if that's how you're going to use Simmons, you're better off trading him cause there are cheaper options to fill that kind of a role. Plus, like inthepaint note, Simmons doesn't want to be a forward, he wants to be the PG, so you're not only going to have an ineffective player but a disgruntled one who costs you $30 million/year.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                Where do you put Simmons off-ball, though? Usually, you're looking for floor spacers to give the ball-handler more room to operate. If you put him in the corner, then his man will sag off and disrupt the passing lanes, double team the ball handler or help clog the paint. If you put Simmons in the dunker's spot, then you're turning Embiid into a floor spacer, above the break or in the corner. That's a waste of Embiid.

                Either Simmons or Embiid will be sub-optimized in almost any scenario... with or without Lowry. That's always been, and still is, the crux of the problem. To fully optimize Simmons, he should have the ball in his hands and be surround by 4 floor spacers like Giannis.... but again, that turns Embiid into a Brook Lopez type of stretch 5 most of the time.
                You play him in the traditional PF spot. Not long ago a PF was expected to play in the paint and rarely if ever shoot 3 pointers. He could be a better version of Boris Diaw from the 2005-06 Phoenix Suns, with passing complementary to your scoring PG (Nash).

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                • slaw wrote: View Post

                  That's kinda what they did in the playoffs when Butler was there. Butler was the key guy on the ball but Simmons was largely ineffective in the Toronto series playing that way. Thing is, if that's how you're going to use Simmons, you're better off trading him cause there are cheaper options to fill that kind of a role. Plus, like inthepaint note, Simmons doesn't want to be a forward, he wants to be the PG, so you're not only going to have an ineffective player but a disgruntled one who costs you $30 million/year.
                  Yeah so the issues are that he doesn't want to play PF and that he's very expensive for a non-stretch PF. His excellent passing and defense make it a non-horrendous overpay, but you'd need a good coach who can make the most out of his passing and defensive versatility at PF. That's just my 2 cents on the best role for Simmons.

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                  • Primer wrote: View Post

                    Yeah so the issues are that he doesn't want to play PF and that he's very expensive for a non-stretch PF. His excellent passing and defense make it a non-horrendous overpay, but you'd need a good coach who can make the most out of his passing and defensive versatility at PF. That's just my 2 cents on the best role for Simmons.
                    But even fully agreeing with you.... Diaw had years where he took over 200 threes in a season. He was at least a semi-credible threat to keep the defense honest and space the floor. Simmons has taken only 34 threes, total, over 4 YEARS.

                    And then there's the whole FT fiasco.

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                    • golden wrote: View Post

                      But even fully agreeing with you.... Diaw had years where he took over 200 threes in a season. He was at least a semi-credible threat to keep the defense honest and space the floor. Simmons has taken only 34 threes, total, over 4 YEARS.

                      And then there's the whole FT fiasco.
                      In 2005-06 Diaw took 0.4 3's per game and shot .267. He was not a 3pt threat and that Phoenix team was really good with Diaw playing 36 minutes per game at PF. Diaw also wasn't great from the line, hovered around .700 for his career. The fact he started shooting 3's later in his career isn't relevant other than it may mean Simmons could figure it out eventually too.

                      There are also a ton of the best PF ever who almost never took a 3 Pt shot, and never hit them reliably. You can play basketball without a 3pt threat at PF. Most of those guys had a mid range game but I'm trying to make the best case for Simmons here so let's not bring that up.

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                      • Eh I suppose but most teams are throwing up 50+ 3s a game these days. Everyone is expected to shoot the 3. Simmons is a coward that won't even take paint shots, much less 3s.

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                        • Simmons is like having another Bargnani. We always had to pair him with guys to make up his deficiencies, and it made it difficult to build a team around him. When your best player has a glaring hole (like a PF/C that can't rebound or play D) you are always play catch up. In todays NBA it's hard to build around a wing or PG that can't and won't shoot a 3. We were at the same disadvantage with DeMar, and 3's are even more prevalent today than 3 years ago.

                          Ben would have to play the 5, to build a team around him. Also you can't have him on the floor at the end of a game because of his free throw shooting.

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                          • Primer wrote: View Post

                            Yeah so the issues are that he doesn't want to play PF and that he's very expensive for a non-stretch PF. His excellent passing and defense make it a non-horrendous overpay, but you'd need a good coach who can make the most out of his passing and defensive versatility at PF. That's just my 2 cents on the best role for Simmons.
                            Over 82 games, he's going to do way more good than bad, help you win games, put up lots of stats, play great defense, and be a winning player. Over 82 games you can do lots of things with him and it won't be a big problem. IN fact, he'll probably be an all-star, all-defense and maybe make an all-NBA team or two.

                            The issue is that in certain situations in the playoffs he becomes a serious liability to the team because he can't make free throws (hack-a-Simmons) and he won't/cant' shoot at all, which not only presents a team with serious tactical problems but if you're constructing a roster you basically need to have a closing five-man unit without your best all-around player on it.

                            Bottom line is that he needs to learn to shoot. He doesn't need to be great or even good or even average but he needs to have something in his arsenal and he needs to fix the free throw issue.

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                            • Primer wrote: View Post

                              In 2005-06 Diaw took 0.4 3's per game and shot .267. He was not a 3pt threat and that Phoenix team was really good with Diaw playing 36 minutes per game at PF. Diaw also wasn't great from the line, hovered around .700 for his career. The fact he started shooting 3's later in his career isn't relevant other than it may mean Simmons could figure it out eventually too.

                              There are also a ton of the best PF ever who almost never took a 3 Pt shot, and never hit them reliably. You can play basketball without a 3pt threat at PF. Most of those guys had a mid range game but I'm trying to make the best case for Simmons here so let's not bring that up.
                              The game has changed a lot since 2005-06.

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                              • Here's a fantasy trade. Would never happen as there are 4 teams involved (but maybe as 2 separate trades?):

                                http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ygptxkgz

                                --GSW to send the 7th , 14th and future first to Blazers
                                --Raptors to send future first to Philly
                                --Future pick swaps as needed to further balance the trade
                                2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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