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  • That 2004 Pistons defence is thrilling. The energy, the timing, the effort, the skill do disrupt the plays while being physical enough to do it but without fouling, are all elite. But I will say this (without taking anything away from it because that D is the gold standard in nba history): they had to deal with a different kind of offence. It was a lot of entry passes, cuts and post ups. The perimeter game and 3pt shot wasn't as prevalent as these days, so the floor was "smaller", which helps defences. That's one of the reasons that level of defence will be extremely difficult to replicate, by any team.

    To give an idea of what I mean (numbers are for the whole season):

    2004 finalists:
    Pistons: 3PA 946, 3P% .344
    Lakers: 3PA 1115, 3P% .327

    2021 finalists;
    Suns: 3PA 2490, 3P% .378
    Bucks; 3PA 2669, 3P% .389

    Defensives schemes had to be completely overhauled to deal with this change. The floor is extremely outstretched now by comparison, that Pistons defence is crystallized and won't be replicated, unless that era and style of ball comes back. That said, I believe our defence will be one of the best in the league, and if any can approach the '04 pistons gold standard, is us.

    My main point though, is as a much I'd like to believe, it's very difficult to actually win games consistently in this era with just that kind of approach (disrupting lanes, forcing turnovers, generating your offence from your defence, transition etc..). I mean, all that stuff is KEY, but if that's all you're doing, you're threading water.

    I like that we have the length, the passing the cutting all that is awesome, but now that Lowry is gone this team will absolutely need someone other than Flynn to run a proper pick roll and direct off-ball screens to create space when the opposing defence is hunkered down. If I'm the coach i'm having Siakam and Barnes work on that right away. A Siakam-Barnes pick and roll alternating between handler/roller would be HUGE for this team. I'm excited overall though, because we got the pieces to be a really good team
    Last edited by inthepaint; Sat Sep 4, 2021, 01:26 PM.
    2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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    • golden wrote: View Post

      Trying to win games using steals to generate transition buckets sounds great in theory, but it isn't a sustainable advantage. Even those Pistons team were never top 5 in generating turnovers (TOV% or TOV/100 differential). They won through great team defense, slowing the pace, protecting the paint and rebounding (i.e. Ben Wallace). They also got to the FT line a TON. If we want to replicate the Pistons, we'll need an elite rebounder & rim protector like Wallace, who was also a 4 time DPOY.
      Not going to argue with you about what the Pistons had. But what if you had 6 guys on your team who scooped up rebounds? What if your team was full of length and strength that could defend perimeter shots? What is all your guys were high energy? What if there were no egos and everyone was willing to share? What if you had a team that was fully switchable on D? What if the Raptors start the season with everybody on the starting lineup shooting above the league average 3 pt %.

      I think all of those things are possible. I don't think they lead to an NBA championship, but I believe they will provide a lot of fun this season as the team rebuilds itself. That's good enough for me.

      Comment


      • That Pistons team was great but we're not modeling ourselves after them entirely. We'll do some of the same things but also do a lot different. The game is a lot different now.

        Comment


        • I really really wonder if a poster can create three or four different identities in this forum with different ISPs preventing an infraction or a ban with some psycho intention warranting an Inpatient Psychiatric Admission to just echo same opinions

          just curious lol
          You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

          When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


          Comment


          • [QUOTE=The Claw Reborn;n1400185
            just curious lol[/QUOTE]

            It's just you and one other guy on here.

            Comment


            • inthepaint wrote: View Post
              That 2004 Pistons defence is thrilling. The energy, the timing, the effort, the skill do disrupt the plays while being physical enough to do it but without fouling, are all elite. But I will say this (without taking anything away from it because that D is the gold standard in nba history): they had to deal with a different kind of offence. It was a lot of entry passes, cuts and post ups. The perimeter game and 3pt shot wasn't as prevalent as these days, so the floor was "smaller", which helps defences. That's one of the reasons that level of defence will be extremely difficult to replicate, by any team.

              To give an idea of what I mean (numbers are for the whole season):

              2004 finalists:
              Pistons: 3PA 946, 3P% .344
              Lakers: 3PA 1115, 3P% .327

              2021 finalists;
              Suns: 3PA 2490, 3P% .378
              Bucks; 3PA 2669, 3P% .389

              Defensives schemes had to be completely overhauled to deal with this change. The floor is extremely outstretched now by comparison, that Pistons defence is crystallized and won't be replicated, unless that era and style of ball comes back. That said, I believe our defence will be one of the best in the league, and if any can approach the '04 pistons gold standard, is us.

              My main point though, is as a much I'd like to believe, it's very difficult to actually win games consistently in this era with just that kind of approach (disrupting lanes, forcing turnovers, generating your offence from your defence, transition etc..). I mean, all that stuff is KEY, but if that's all you're doing, you're threading water.

              I like that we have the length, the passing the cutting all that is awesome, but now that Lowry is gone this team will absolutely need someone other than Flynn to run a proper pick roll and direct off-ball screens to create space when the opposing defence is hunkered down. If I'm the coach i'm having Siakam and Barnes work on that right away. A Siakam-Barnes pick and roll alternating between handler/roller would be HUGE for this team. I'm excited overall though, because we got the pieces to be a really good team
              How exactly do you envision a siakam-barnes PnR to work? Defenders can easily go under the screen cause neither are pull up threats. Neither are particularly great rollers. Neither are particularly great shooters in general so the pick n pop doesnt seem particularly useful. And they are both likely to be defended by similarly sized players so even a mismatch to exploit may be hard to produce. Just curious cause I have alot of hope for these two but just not sure the PnR will work for them.

              Comment


              • JawsGT wrote: View Post

                How exactly do you envision a siakam-barnes PnR to work? Defenders can easily go under the screen cause neither are pull up threats. Neither are particularly great rollers. Neither are particularly great shooters in general so the pick n pop doesnt seem particularly useful. And they are both likely to be defended by similarly sized players so even a mismatch to exploit may be hard to produce. Just curious cause I have alot of hope for these two but just not sure the PnR will work for them.
                I'd like a Fred siakam PNR with Fred as the screener, getting siakam a smaller match up, Fred popping to the 3 pt line and scottie cutting back door from the weak side with an off ball screen from the C , with OG in the corner if help comes
                To be the champs you got to beat the champs

                Comment


                • I like the Gary Trent Jr. and anybody pick and roll... because he will always take the shot.

                  Comment


                  • JawsGT wrote: View Post

                    How exactly do you envision a siakam-barnes PnR to work? Defenders can easily go under the screen cause neither are pull up threats. Neither are particularly great rollers. Neither are particularly great shooters in general so the pick n pop doesnt seem particularly useful. And they are both likely to be defended by similarly sized players so even a mismatch to exploit may be hard to produce. Just curious cause I have alot of hope for these two but just not sure the PnR will work for them.
                    They have to get their %'s up and start shooting at an average clip from 3 and from the elbow. If they do that, defences have to respect their outside shot, while aslo having to mind their length and speed to finish inside, as well as the court vision to hit cutters and corner shooters. That's when you start to create microcracks on a set defence when you don't have an iso guy bullying it in and attracting doubles.

                    But yeah, gotta be a threat to shoot from outside otherwise the defence will sag, and to your point, they're not there yet (well, pascal used to be but the 3pt % regressed, hopefully will get it back up). That was the issue with Gasol in the bubble - you're "quarterbacking" and pretty passing from the high post all day but because you're not shooting defences just ignore that to pack the paint and gang up on other guys. Bigs like Barnes and Siakam in the perimeter can disrupt the opposing defence a lot, but yeah only if they're shooting.
                    2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

                    Comment


                    • Primer wrote: View Post
                      That Pistons team was great but we're not modeling ourselves after them entirely. We'll do some of the same things but also do a lot different. The game is a lot different now.
                      We’re (potentially) better built defensively for the modern game with our ability to fly out to shooters and switch everything with mobile length.

                      Our bigs aren’t at all like Big Ben inside (maybe Birch is a poverty-stricken version), but they’re similar, maybe superior, in their ability to close out to 3-point shooters.
                      Last edited by SkywalkerAC; Sat Sep 4, 2021, 11:30 PM.

                      Comment


                      • I decided to take a look at the individuals that will likely be part of the roster for the Raptors this season and who have some NBA stats listed.

                        Flynn and Achluwa only have numbers for last year. Birch had a more constrained role with Orlando than he did with the Raptors after coming over, but it is what it is. I didn't go back more than 2 years except for Birch's FT% which had a big variance. We know Pascal had a down year with a major impact on almost all his numbers. Fred's were typically down as well.

                        There has been a lot of chatter about the lack of good 3 pt shooting. I see 5 guys shooting 37% or better. Several players I would expect to improve this season, most notably Flynn Birch and Siakim. Siakim managed 36.9 and 35.9 with his threes before last season where he only hit 29.7.
                        The free throw shooting for the whole team is mostly excellent.

                        Some of the guys who weren't in the NBA last year are going to get minutes and at least a few of them look to be ready to contribute. In particular with rebounds and assists.

                        With the 3 pt shooting on this team, and the opportunity for excellent D on the perimeter and under the basket and in the paint, I think it will be an exciting season.
                        (Assuming some COVID variant doesn't screw the team over again)

                        Note: I actually had all of the players and their stats from the last two years averaged out and in a table but the format was completely screwed up when I hit the "Reply" Button. I'm not going to compile the info again. Just take my word for it.
                        Last edited by Puffer; Sun Sep 5, 2021, 10:08 PM.

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                        • Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                          • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                            Yep. This team is going to hover around .500 this year. The main decision on the tail end of the season is if we tank again or if we try to push it on the play-in tournement to see if we can start getting some playoff experience to these guys
                            2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

                            Comment


                            • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                              Yep. This team is going to hover around .500 this year. The main decision on the tail end of the season is if we tank again or if we try to push it on the play-in tournement to see if we can start getting some playoff experience to these guys
                              I think he is just setting some realistic expectations, we are a very young team with a new leadership dynamic. That said I think we're comfortably above .500 at seasons end.

                              Comment


                              • inthepaint wrote: View Post

                                Yep. This team is going to hover around .500 this year. The main decision on the tail end of the season is if we tank again or if we try to push it on the play-in tournement to see if we can start getting some playoff experience to these guys
                                Whether we draft around 10 or 15 is a pretty marginal difference. I'd put money on Nurse pushing for every win he can get after playing ball with his W-L last season.

                                43 wins is about what I'd guess. With a ceiling of 49 and a floor of 38.

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