'21-'22 Roster Construction

[golden]

lol. how'd it take you a full week to throw that back in my face? for the record, i never disagreed with the approach, i just never thought they had it in 'em. thought the best they could do was get to somewhere between the 10th and 14th best lottery odds. i also misunderstood your post and thought you were talking about moving up via trade rather than through the lottery, and maintain that a trade into the top 5 from that far below is unlikely. anyhow definitely happy to take the L on that one



that's the most flattering thing you've ever said about fred vanvleet. if he reads this board, he should print it out to carry around in his wallet and remind himself that you don't actually think he's interchangeable with trey burke.



yeah i agree it's not ideal to have him be the primary playmaker. i just don't think that means you need to get rid of him, and don't follow why he needs to go before next deadline (or before his deal is up at all). i used to think it was hopeless to try to build from the middle and that the only way to build a contender was a complete hinkie/presti style tear-down, but think a few teams have put that notion to bed.

Sorry it took a week, but I completely forgot about what “chris the RR poster” thought about tanking until I posted that….my bad.

And if Fred’s reading RR, then hopefully the new Mavs regime, Harlabob and Nico (sounds like pretty shady duo) are also reading my glowing praise of Fred and cough up Luka and picks for him.

The reason you trade Fred during this season is because the team receiving him gets 2 playoff runs, including a full season, to test drive him. Otherwise, it’s a risky in season rental and you won’t get much back in return. I know he signed a 4 year deal, but he’s surely going to opt out after year 3 and to get as much AAV and term on his next deal as soon as he can. Sell high.

[chris]

Sorry it took a week, but I completely forgot about what “chris the RR poster” thought about tanking until I posted that….my bad.

And if Fred’s reading RR, then hopefully the new Mavs regime, Harlabob and Nico (sounds like pretty shady duo) are also reading my glowing praise of Fred and cough up Luka and picks for him.

The reason you trade Fred during this season is because the team receiving him gets 2 playoff runs, including a full season, to test drive him. Otherwise, it’s a risky in season rental and you won’t get much back in return. I know he signed a 4 year deal, but he’s surely going to opt out after year 3 and to get as much AAV and term on his next deal as soon as he can. Sell high.

no need to apologize golden, i knew you'd get around to it at some point.

say something nice about durant next, who actually probably does read these boards.

i should have rephrased that part of my post as i got why you'd want to deal him before next season's deadline to maximize value if he needed to go (although two years is not exactly what i'd consider a 'rental')... i meant to emphasize that i don't follow why he needs to go at all. he's a good to very good two way player on a reasonable contract with excellent leadership and intangible qualities, by your own admission. unless blowing this team all the way up, why is it a given that he needs to go?

[DanH]

Besides the fact that you feel they wouldn't, couldn't they literally not?
Wouldn't Wiggins have to be included to match salary?
I just assumed Wiggins' inclusion would be a given.

(edit: I see now that this line of conversation has shifted over to the Pascal thread.)

Yes, Wiggins would have to come, but its generous to suggest Wiggins on that contract is a "return." Just there for salary matching. Raps would certainly hope to see improvement from him but he's not valuable in the trade.

[dylan123]

Dame would be amazing if he was on the market but hard to imagine us being a player in it. Love watching him go at it, just a killer on offense.

[golden]

no need to apologize golden, i knew you'd get around to it at some point.

say something nice about durant next, who actually probably does read these boards.

i should have rephrased that part of my post as i got why you'd want to deal him before next season's deadline to maximize value if he needed to go (although two years is not exactly what i'd consider a 'rental')... i meant to emphasize that i don't follow why he needs to go at all. he's a good to very good two way player on a reasonable contract with excellent leadership and intangible qualities, by your own admission. unless blowing this team all the way up, why is it a given that he needs to go?

You're still not understanding. Fred has a player option at the end of the 2023 season, which he will surely opt-out. If you wait until Feb 2023 trade deadline, then the team acquiring Fred only has him for a few months + 1 playoff run. That would be looked at as a rental, for which your return will be lower. Trading by or before the Feb 2022 trade deadline will give the acquiring team at least 2 playoff runs, and we would receive max return.

And I never said it was a "given that Fred has to go". What I said was, we should "look at scenarios to trade Fred for max return". If there are no good deals then of course you keep him and hope/pray that we can land a true core piece, that slots everybody (including Fred) into their proper roles. Finding that foundation piece is a high (if not the highest) priority and that should also involve using Fred as a trade asset to land that piece, is what I'm saying. Fred could be used towards a star upgrade, or yes, even a risky draft pick as a part of a longer rebuild.

A lot of Raptor fans seem to be deathly afraid of a full rebuild with young players - they hope we can strike lightning twice by building around role players and hoping to land another Kawhi. But, I'm totally okay with the full rebuild approach if the organization wants to go that route. Maybe it's shell-shock from being mocked so long as a Craptors, that some fans never want to go back there again. I understand that. But the rise and fall of teams is part of the normal cycle of sports. It's okay.... we got a chip and they can never that away from us. The goal is to win another chip.... not just to be mediocre, so we won't be mocked.

[The Claw Reborn]

Championship - Current

Gasol - Birch
Siakam - Siakam
Kawhi - OG
Green - GTJ
Lowry - Van Vleet

Van Vleet - Flynn
Powell - Harris
OG - ?
Serge - Gillespie
Boucher - ?

———————

I find it mind boggling how one can say that this team can survive winning 4 of 7 playoff games with the Current Roster even if you add a no.4 Rookie pick to the mix

None of the current replacements are up to par to the previous ones. Even current Siakam seem to be a shell of his former self

[saints91]

We need a lot of internal growth to get back to where we were, and we have to find legit bigs. I think we are working towards being another trade away from being a true contender. Keep on building a complimentary team with a bunch of assets. Stay relevant. Hope we can trade in some assets for a game changer. Likely another player like Kawhi won't become available, but maybe we'll have a better base than we did before getting Kawhi.

[saints91]

A championship for us will take a lot of luck and maneuvering to get to that level, because we aren't a destination for FA's yet. I'm prepared to be patient, and ready to enjoy watching some guys grow. I think we'll be competitive.

[LJ2]

Championship - Current

Gasol - Birch
Siakam - Siakam
Kawhi - OG
Green - GTJ
Lowry - Van Vleet

Van Vleet - Flynn
Powell - Harris
OG - ?
Serge - Gillespie
Boucher - ?

———————

I find it mind boggling how one can say that this team can survive winning 4 of 7 playoff games with the Current Roster even if you add a no.4 Rookie pick to the mix

None of the current replacements are up to par to the previous ones. Even current Siakam seem to be a shell of his former self

I don't think anyone is saying this current roster is a contender, but it is headed in the right direction while maintaining a level of competitiveness. What I find mind boggling is that anyone can think an NBA team with a championship roster can be immediately turned over to a new contending roster. When has that ever happened? Not after the KG Celtics, not after the Kobe Lakers, or after the LeBron Heat.

Last season was a wash due to playing in Tampa and flawed roster construction. I expect those two major issues to be addressed this off season and to see see a version of the Raptors that is much closer to their championship defending season. That would be a huge step in the above mentioned "right direction" especially if they manage it with Lowry gone.

[The Claw Reborn]

Championship - Current - Post Trade

Gasol - Birch - Sabonis
Siakam - Siakam - KAT
Kawhi - OG - OG
Green - GTJ - GTJ
Lowry - Van Vleet - Brogdon

Van Vleet - Flynn - Flynn
Powell - Harris - No. 4 pick
OG - ? - MLE (50%)
Serge - Gillespie
Boucher - ? - MLE (50%)

———————

Faster retool nearing contention. Young core with intact future picks as down the road tradeable assets

[The Claw Reborn]

I don't think anyone is saying this current roster is a contender, but it is headed in the right direction while maintaining a level of competitiveness. What I find mind boggling is that anyone can think an NBA team with a championship roster can be immediately turned over to a new contending roster. When has that ever happened? Not after the KG Celtics, not after the Kobe Lakers, or after the LeBron Heat.

Last season was a wash due to playing in Tampa and flawed roster construction. I expect those two major issues to be addressed this off season and to see see a version of the Raptors that is much closer to their championship defending season. That would be a huge step in the above mentioned "right direction" especially if they manage it with Lowry gone.

I don’t want a full rebuild but I am aiming for a younger starting core at the very least 4 of 5 with the same timeline. That being said, I also want a faster retool closer to contention and still maintaining a winning culture (the very least past 2nd round of the playoffs).

[Demographic Shift]

one of the moves I saw happening. Interesting what Warriors will do

Wow... Thats a seriously good rumour.
If there is any legs to this you could make this deal at 7 if the player you want is there


AS IS
=====

At the 5 is Likely Birch
At the 4 is SIakam
At the 3 is Annunoby.
At the 2 is Trent Jr.
At the 1 is Kyle or Fred

First Ballhandler off the bench is Kyle or Fred.
FIrst BIg off the bench is Boucher




TO BE if this were ever to materialize....its sounds to good to be true so it probably won't..

At the 5 is Wiseman #2 Overall.
At the 4 is Annunoby
At the 3 is FRP - Scotty Barnes #7 overall from GSW or Wiggins
At the 2 is A Jalen - Suggs or Green #4 overall.
At the 1 is Kyle or Fred

First Ballhandler off the bench is Kyle or Fred.
First Wing off the bench is WIggins or Barnes or Trent Jr.
FIrst BIg off the bench is Boucher

[Shredder]

If I'm trading Pascal for a Pick and a Prospect, I would be looking at OKC and Shai. Thats the haul

Take the 4 and the 6th and try to flip it for the 2nd pick from Houston. Or keep the picks and take Suggs/Green with the 4th and Barnes/Kuminga with the 6th

Then you have a core of

FVV
Shai
Trent
OG
Mobley

Or

FVV
Shai
Trent
OG
Birch (or S&T centre from Lowry)

Suggs/Green & Barnes/Kuminga off the bench

I love Pascal, but if he were to get traded, I would want a player that can put up some scoring numbers, the GS trade is salary filler and potential. If we are just trading for potential, then you wait to trade Siakam, as he still has potential to play more like himself at home.

Obviously Pascal doesn't fit OKC's timeline, but maybe there is a 3rd team involved.

[TrueTorontoFan]

If I'm trading Pascal for a Pick and a Prospect, I would be looking at OKC and Shai. Thats the haul

Take the 4 and the 6th and try to flip it for the 2nd pick from Houston. Or keep the picks and take Suggs/Green with the 4th and Barnes/Kuminga with the 6th

Then you have a core of

FVV
Shai
Trent
OG
Mobley

Or

FVV
Shai
Trent
OG
Birch (or S&T centre from Lowry)

Suggs/Green & Barnes/Kuminga off the bench

I love Pascal, but if he were to get traded, I would want a player that can put up some scoring numbers, the GS trade is salary filler and potential. If we are just trading for potential, then you wait to trade Siakam, as he still has potential to play more like himself at home.

Obviously Pascal doesn't fit OKC's timeline, but maybe there is a 3rd team involved.

the thing about shai is his contract is coming up so he is going to be getting rookie scale max if he signs


much rather neither, the person you trade first IF you explore trades is likely FVV

[chris]

You're still not understanding. Fred has a player option at the end of the 2023 season, which he will surely opt-out. If you wait until Feb 2023 trade deadline, then the team acquiring Fred only has him for a few months + 1 playoff run. That would be looked at as a rental, for which your return will be lower. Trading by or before the Feb 2022 trade deadline will give the acquiring team at least 2 playoff runs, and we would receive max return.

sorry i had it in my head that he had 3 guaranteed years left for some reason. i do know how an option works, believe it or not.

A lot of Raptor fans seem to be deathly afraid of a full rebuild with young players - they hope we can strike lightning twice by building around role players and hoping to land another Kawhi. But, I'm totally okay with the full rebuild approach if the organization wants to go that route. Maybe it's shell-shock from being mocked so long as a Craptors, that some fans never want to go back there again. I understand that. But the rise and fall of teams is part of the normal cycle of sports. It's okay.... we got a chip and they can never that away from us. The goal is to win another chip.... not just to be mediocre, so we won't be mocked.

for the majority of my time as a raptors fan, a full rebuild with young players is all i hoped for. i never posted all that much but i would say that a good percentage of my posts in the first five years were advocating for a complete, shameless, hinkie tank, and trying to explain to the "but we've been tanking for years" crowd that there was a pretty big difference between just sucking purposelessly due to poor management and a targeted approach of stockpiling assets, taking on bad contracts, and intentionally fielding a non-competitive team of a proper tear down. it is a viable approach, and sometimes the only one available to certain franchises, and i definitely wouldn't say that i'm "deathly afraid" of a full rebuild.

i'm also definitely not in favour of it at this point in time, for a few reasons. as slaw said in another thread, not everyone roots for the laundry, and i do have a sense of appreciation and sentimentality towards the three remaining players that played a huge part of the 2019 team. doesn't mean i think they're untouchable, but i see no need to move on from them currently (at least the two on long-term and reasonable contracts) and would prefer to continue to try to win with them. last year was an oddity but they were huge parts of really great teams in 2019 and 2020, and i think the lottery luck has afforded us a good opportunity to get back to real contention in the not too distant future, or significantly less distant future than if the team were blown all the way up. i also don't think it's something nurse would be on board with, and i'd prefer to hang on to him too. finally, despite the eyerolls it tends to elicit from many, i do think there might actually be something to the nebulous concept of building a "winning culture", and a number of teams in the last decade have built title contending teams without bottoming out, us included.