Everything 2021-22 Free Agency / Off-Season

[bertarapsfan]

Wonder if Bobby or Masai will ever fix our backup PG issues. Are they hedging towards lottery / play-in or to compete territory?

Last year we needed a center. Baynes was awful, and Len was waived (still don't know why). And we just didn't bother replacing them until we got Freddy 2.0 and Birch late into the season. It was pretty clear that they didn't care if we tanked. We doubled down on that when we started resting healthy guys.

This season we need a backup PG. Rubio goes down for the Cavs, and they immediately grab Rondo from the Lakers to replace him, without giving up much. We know we have a problem there, but don't seem to care. We likely could have shut down Banton to avoid having to play the Cavs with our garbage team. But we didn't and lost by over 40.

Are we really trying to win or will our front office be happier if we lose? They aren't really setting us up for success. Either way if we can continue to stay healthy (that's a big if).. we should be in play-in territory. Don't think we get to 6 though. Too many road games in the back half of their schedule.

Yea if we want help competing we need a real back up PG. If it's a development year you would think Flynn would be getting a longer leash and penciled in as the backup PG every night to play through the ups and downs. Flynn erratic playing time point to them wanting to stay competive over developing young guys. Banton was fun the first 10 games but declined sharply since. He excells in the fast paced transition game we were playing earlier but have since pulled back on that a bit. Clear he needs to play that pace or go to the g league to learn half court PG duties.

Some one in the mold of a Cory Joseph that can eat up 15 to 20 mins a night and just steady a 2nd unit would be perfect for this team and likely wouldn't cost much to get. I guess it would take a 2nd rounder or Flynn to get a vet PG, but maybe they would rather roll the dice playing FVV heavy then give away am assest for a half year rental

[planetmars]

Yea if we want help competing we need a real back up PG. If it's a development year you would think Flynn would be getting a longer leash and penciled in as the backup PG every night to play through the ups and downs. Flynn erratic playing time point to them wanting to stay competive over developing young guys. Banton was fun the first 10 games but declined sharply since. He excells in the fast paced transition game we were playing earlier but have since pulled back on that a bit. Clear he needs to play that pace or go to the g league to learn half court PG duties.

Some one in the mold of a Cory Joseph that can eat up 15 to 20 mins a night and just steady a 2nd unit would be perfect for this team and likely wouldn't cost much to get. I guess it would take a 2nd rounder or Flynn to get a vet PG, but maybe they would rather roll the dice playing FVV heavy then give away am assest for a half year rental

Nurse wants to win.. and would rather play Fred over 40mpg, then to develop Malachi.

But if I had to guess, I don't think management cares if we win or lose. The Cavs game sort of proved to me that they didn't care. They could have sat Banton to avoid that game.. but they didn't.

I'm under the impression that they would be happier if we get another lottery ticket than a playoff appearance this season.

[LJ2]

Nurse wants to win.. and would rather play Fred over 40mpg, then to develop Malachi.

But if I had to guess, I don't think management cares if we win or lose. The Cavs game sort of proved to me that they didn't care. They could have sat Banton to avoid that game.. but they didn't.

I'm under the impression that they would be happier if we get another lottery ticket than a playoff appearance this season.

The thing is that the Raps, under Ujiri, have always been about competing even while developing. They aren't going to go Hinkie and strip it down to the core and they aren't going to fix every gaping hole whether it's at C or back up PG. The final product doesn't have to be put together this season, or the next when the young core is 3-4 years from being ready to compete anyway.

[DanH]

Yea if we want help competing we need a real back up PG. If it's a development year you would think Flynn would be getting a longer leash and penciled in as the backup PG every night to play through the ups and downs. Flynn erratic playing time point to them wanting to stay competive over developing young guys. Banton was fun the first 10 games but declined sharply since. He excells in the fast paced transition game we were playing earlier but have since pulled back on that a bit. Clear he needs to play that pace or go to the g league to learn half court PG duties.

Some one in the mold of a Cory Joseph that can eat up 15 to 20 mins a night and just steady a 2nd unit would be perfect for this team and likely wouldn't cost much to get. I guess it would take a 2nd rounder or Flynn to get a vet PG, but maybe they would rather roll the dice playing FVV heavy then give away am assest for a half year rental

We got our first real look at Barnes as the bench PG with another starter in support last game (OG in this case) and it looked good enough to try for a while here before thinking about upgrading the position.

[planetmars]

The thing is that the Raps, under Ujiri, have always been about competing even while developing. They aren't going to go Hinkie and strip it down to the core and they aren't going to fix every gaping hole whether it's at C or back up PG. The final product doesn't have to be put together this season, or the next when the young core is 3-4 years from being ready to compete anyway.

Yeah good point. Evaluation is paramount. He needs to see how the "core" operates both in the regular season and in the playoffs. With the play-in they get basically 2 additional play off spots as well. If the core can't do it without some help (like a backup PG or a C) then maybe the core isn't good enough.

[LJ2]

Yeah good point. Evaluation is paramount. He needs to see how the "core" operates both in the regular season and in the playoffs. With the play-in they get basically 2 additional play off spots as well. If the core can't do it without some help (like a backup PG or a C) then maybe the core isn't good enough.

There's two groups within this core. FVV & Siakam are the older set and then there's the younger core of Barnes, Trent, OG, and Precious. Option one is that the combined core is good enough to or shows clear signs that they can compete for a title before guys have to get paid. Option two is move FVV & Siakam for the part(s) that will help the young core win a title. Either way nothing has to get done for a couple of years which fits well with the development time of the young core. Raps aren't going to mess up their cap space with mid-level talent at C or back up PG, so they can compete now. Everything will be done with a focus on competing once the young core is ready (3-4 years).

[golden]

Yeah good point. Evaluation is paramount. He needs to see how the "core" operates both in the regular season and in the playoffs. With the play-in they get basically 2 additional play off spots as well. If the core can't do it without some help (like a backup PG or a C) then maybe the core isn't good enough.

"Evaluation" is the key word for this season. Even the Dalano decision to play vs. Cavs could be viewed as evaluating Dalano's ability to run a team against mostly NBA level competition.

Regarding the bench, Nurse has been known to roll with a 6-man rotation in the playoffs, if he has to. Everything we've seen from Nurse since he was hired seems to indicate that he really doesn't care that much about developing a traditional bench, or bench players. Nurse is more about finding 6-8 versatile, adaptable, high IQ players who can defend, and who he can trust to make smart decisions on the fly when it counts. And those non-starters have to be able to mesh seamlessly with the starters and themselves become starters if necessary.

[DanH]

There's two groups within this core. FVV & Siakam are the older set and then there's the younger core of Barnes, Trent, OG, and Precious. Option one is that the combined core is good enough to or shows clear signs that they can compete for a title before guys have to get paid. Option two is move FVV & Siakam for the part(s) that will help the young core win a title. Either way nothing has to get done for a couple of years which fits well with the development time of the young core. Raps aren't going to mess up their cap space with mid-level talent at C or back up PG, so they can compete now. Everything will be done with a focus on competing once the young core is ready (3-4 years).

I think it's pretty generous to consider Trent or Precious part of a core just yet. Neither has had the sort of impact or production the others have (or pedigree in case of Barnes), and given how far Precious is from that and the contract they just gave Trent, I doubt the Raps consider either to be core members just yet either. Could change, but it's a little early for that.

[LJ2]

I think it's pretty generous to consider Trent or Precious part of a core just yet. Neither has had the sort of impact or production the others have (or pedigree in case of Barnes), and given how far Precious is from that and the contract they just gave Trent, I doubt the Raps consider either to be core members just yet either. Could change, but it's a little early for that.

Really then who makes up the future core of this roster other than Barnes and OG? Do you think the Raps will pivot in the next couple of seasons and put a roster around Siakam and FVV which can contend for a championship? The absence of vets on this roster would indicate the team has committed to a youth movement/rebuild, so that's hard to picture.

Granted rebuilding doesn't mean Trent and Precious will make the final cut, but the team is certainly investing a lot of play time into those two. Would be a shame if they are doing that in players they don't believe will be there long term.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Really then who makes up the future core of this roster other than Barnes and OG? Do you think the Raps will pivot in the next couple of seasons and put a roster around Siakam and FVV which can contend for a championship? The absence of vets on this roster would indicate the team has committed to a youth movement/rebuild, so that's hard to picture.

Granted rebuilding doesn't mean Trent and Precious will make the final cut, but the team is certainly investing a lot of play time into those two. Would be a shame if they are doing that in players they don't believe will be there long term.

there are two groups. OG fits in both timelines. Either way though the core is kind of a core 4. OG, Siakam, Barnes, FVV.

The tradeability of these players in terms of who is close to untouchable likely is something like:

Barnes>OG

Siakam/Fred next tier down


Theye would want a good amount of assets back in a Siakam or Fred trade but they aren't untouchable. OG isn't untouchable but close.

[Primer]

there are two groups. OG fits in both timelines. Either way though the core is kind of a core 4. OG, Siakam, Barnes, FVV.

The tradeability of these players in terms of who is close to untouchable likely is something like:

Barnes>OG

Siakam/Fred next tier down


Theye would want a good amount of assets back in a Siakam or Fred trade but they aren't untouchable. OG isn't untouchable but close.

I'd say only Barnes is untouchable.

I also consider Trent part of the core, all 5 starters are core players.

Our "old" players are only 27, no reason they can't be starters for the next 5 years. I don't look at it as 2 cores.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I'd say only Barnes is untouchable.

I also consider Trent part of the core, all 5 starters are core players.

Our "old" players are only 27, no reason they can't be starters for the next 5 years. I don't look at it as 2 cores.

I don't disagree with you at all. I don't see any reason why there is a need to delineate and fit our team into a more traditional model of team building when that isn't our style. We have a young group of vets who are just entering their prime. We also have a group of young up-and-coming players. I would argue Boucher is someone who doesn't fit the timeline but everyone else does.


Also most of the trade suggestions have been for people who fit dab smack in the middle of those age ranges. Again as scottie develops the team will just get better and better. It allows us to develop and go for it. I do not see any reason to purposefully tank especially given that the true tankers have so many picks locked up already over the next decade. I also think that strategy is risky because you could make a move to tank and then become so bad that you alienate your top-line talented prospects like Barnes or even OG. At the end of the day the majority of NBA players who remotely like the game want to win. At some point, you gotta be moderately competitive. I don't think taking a step back would help us in any way beyond pushing our 23/24 timeline back two years at least.

Something to seriously consider moving forward.


Also if you go for a win now move and you are serious you would need to make a move that would consolidate assets at the top line to get A GUY. I don't see many avenues available. Beal hasn't officially asked out and likely won't to maintain his leverage. Lillard just wants to get paid. Also unless you are giving up one of your untouchable guys or near untouchable guys you aren't going to be getting a guy like lillard or beal. Kat is a maybe but again you are making a massive gamble and are basically giving up any and all assets you have currently and future assets as well. It is not the smartest move.


I think people are afraid of treadmilling but don't understand that you don't go from bust to boom right away or vice versa. We got lucky with that 4th overall pick. We have enough young talented players and we have guys who we will likely draft with middling draft picks who will at the very worst likely solidify our bench. I think given that you have both young and older (yet still young) talent nothing wrong with seeing it through for a year. If this year shows you they are so far away from anything in the 23/24 season then you make your move then. I still wouldn't necessarily make a move backwards I would try then to get a guy like KAT and pair him with Barnes and OG. OR that would be a great time to try to throw assets together to get Shai.

[golden]

I'd say only Barnes is untouchable.

I also consider Trent part of the core, all 5 starters are core players.

Our "old" players are only 27, no reason they can't be starters for the next 5 years. I don't look at it as 2 cores.

It's a good point. When we won the chip, at the start of the 2018-19 season, Lowry was 32 & Gasol was 34. Fred & Pascal were 24. Kawhi was 27. So, if we project Scottie at, say, age 24.... then Pascal & Fred will be 31. OG & Trent will be 28. That's actually a good mix of youth and experience for a championship team.

It's also really helpful to contend while Scottie and ideally another key contributor are still on a rookie contracts, like Pascal & OG were.

[LJ2]

I'd say only Barnes is untouchable.

I also consider Trent part of the core, all 5 starters are core players.

Our "old" players are only 27, no reason they can't be starters for the next 5 years. I don't look at it as 2 cores.

It's not a matter of FVV and Siakam being old, it's a matter of timeline. Those guys are in their primes now and able to compete at a high level or for a title, but the rest of the team is not. It's going to be 3-4 years before the rest of the roster catch up. From the outside looking in, it looks an awful lot like management has not committed to winning a title right now with FVV and Siakam as the teams best players, or why else would they have surrounded them with such a young group? Even our end of bench guys are super young and the only vet has been sent home.

There's the probable max extension for Barnes, and raises for the young core to consider down the road. The way Fred has been playing he's not going to sign for $20M per on his next deal. Siakam won't get another max, but it'll be lucrative.

Then there is the matter of whether you can win a championship with this core or not. If we max out as a 50 win team then one or both of the older core are who you would trade for the final piece(s).

My point here is that it's one core right now, but when you look down the road it looks a lot like these guys may not compete for a title together.

[A.I]

A lot of it depends how good Barnes gets when he is 24 or 25. Will he be a high usage star/superstar? If so, then I think Pascal and Fred as a 2nd/3rd option will work on a contending team. Of course you'll have to figure out the Center spot and the bench by then.