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golden wrote: View PostI would not want to pay Ayton the max. I mean, is he really Gobert level elite on defense? Advanced stats don't seem to favor him that much. And if he doesn't have a good pick & roll partner (i.e. FVV vs. CP3), what happens to his offense? Do we stick him in the corner, like all of our other bigs? And what about in the playoffs, when teams go 5-out? How much value would you be getting out of that max contract, if he's not protecting the rim?
Also I don't think you've seen Ayton play much if you think he's only a pick and roll player on offense. He's got a good post game and would beast in our offense with lots of 1 on 1 matchups.
Max is an overpay but that's the only way anyone gets him. So do we want a top 5 C who is only 23 and getting better every season or not? It's impossible to bring in guys like this and not overpay some. The only way to get a great C on a good deal is to draft them and develop them, and there isn't even a single good C in every draft class. Usually only 1 every few years.
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Primer wrote: View Post
Ayton had a 101 Drtg this season. Gobert has a 99 Drtg. I'd say the advanced stats do seem to favor him.
Also I don't think you've seen Ayton play much if you think he's only a pick and roll player on offense. He's got a good post game and would beast in our offense with lots of 1 on 1 matchups.
Max is an overpay but that's the only way anyone gets him. So do we want a top 5 C who is only 23 and getting better every season or not? It's impossible to bring in guys like this and not overpay some. The only way to get a great C on a good deal is to draft them and develop them, and there isn't even a single good C in every draft class. Usually only 1 every few years.
Kevin Love & Bjelica are better defenders than Pascal and OG? By a wide margin? And Boucher (108) is the best defender on the Raps... followed by Dragic (109)?
That said, there's no doubt that Ayton is a good (and possibly great) defender. But is he worth a max salary hit to our cap... is all that I'm questioning. And if he needs to be traded, what is the future market for an overpaid max center, when centers are being de-valued faster than ever.
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I'd prefer the role playing center.. a guy like Gafford (who I mentioned above). Or guys like Zubac, Poeltl, Nurkic or Bamba for example. These guys are severely underpaid for the type of production they bring (rim protection). They aren't impacting how you play offense like Gobert does, but they are also aren't worth 3x as much (Gobert makes an average of $41M a year, Gafford only $13M). I'd be totally okay with Turner for that same reason, since he'd be pretty cheap as compared to guys like Ayton or KAT. And ideally not cost as much in the trade market to acquire.
If we are looking for a big prospect that provides rim protection.. we have that in Precious already. Don't need to draft another kid. Besides centers take a lot longer to develop than other players.
Ayton's max is 25% of the cap or about $33M/year. That's a lot of money for a position that can be duplicated for 40% of the cost. Use the rest of the money on the bench like a fricken backup PG.
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golden wrote: View Post
Individual DRTGs from BBRef are notoriously wonky, if that's where your data is coming from. Kevin Love has a 102 DRTG. Bjelica (100). Hassan Whiteside (101). OG (112). Pascal (112). Boucher (108).
Kevin Love & Bjelica are better defenders than Pascal and OG? By a wide margin? And Boucher (108) is the best defender on the Raps... followed by Dragic (109)?
That said, there's no doubt that Ayton is a good (and possibly great) defender. But is he worth a max salary hit to our cap... is all that I'm questioning. And if he needs to be traded, what is the future market for an overpaid max center, when centers are being de-valued faster than ever.
He's not the kind of center being devalued. He's not Drummond.
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Primer wrote: View Post
Would you value him more than Pascal or close? Because that's what his max deal would be, and I definitely value him close to that.
He's not the kind of center being devalued. He's not Drummond.
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golden wrote: View Post
Well 2X DPOY Rudy Gobert isn't Drummond either - and he was played off the floor by Nic Batum and Marcus Morris in the playoffs, so there's your answer. Given equal salary... I would expect Pascal to have higher trade value around the league than Ayton. The only advantage for Ayton would be age... if the trade partner is a rebuilding team.
Ayton is solid, but he is playing with one of the greatest PGs of all time and if you're going for a championship, would you take the player who already won one or the player who played in his first Playoffs last season? He did get to the Finals though and played well.
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I don't even know if Masai and Bobby want a center. And even if they do I don't think we know what they value in that position. Do they really want to run 5 out offense or do they want a rim protector who able to switch. Obviously, they would want both if possible but if push comes to shove what is 1A option and 1B option.Only one thing matters: We The Champs.
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MixxAOR wrote: View PostI don't even know if Masai and Bobby want a center. And even if they do I don't think we know what they value in that position. Do they really want to run 5 out offense or do they want a rim protector who able to switch. Obviously, they would want both if possible but if push comes to shove what is 1A option and 1B option.
They could also use more versatility on the half-court offence to minimize these scoring draughts, and KAT would help address that. That would require Siakam as the outgoing piece though. Starters would be Fred-Trent-Scottie-OG-KAT and that would be an upgrade over our starting 5 (at least on paper as we're we're to see who that is with everyone healthy). Team would also be slightly younger with a longer contention window.
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golden wrote: View Post
Well 2X DPOY Rudy Gobert isn't Drummond either - and he was played off the floor by Nic Batum and Marcus Morris in the playoffs, so there's your answer. Given equal salary... I would expect Pascal to have higher trade value around the league than Ayton. The only advantage for Ayton would be age... if the trade partner is a rebuilding team.
Like why even bring up Gobert? We're talking about Ayton.
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A.I wrote: View Post
Pascal has been basically the number one option here since 2019. He won a championship as the number two scorer and has improved since then. He'd be perfect for many contenders as a second or third option.
Ayton is solid, but he is playing with one of the greatest PGs of all time and if you're going for a championship, would you take the player who already won one or the player who played in his first Playoffs last season? He did get to the Finals though and played well.
I take Ayton over Pascal because of fit. We desperately need a C, both OG and Scottie can play Pascals position so he's expendable to make the roster more balanced, and I value Ayton just as highly as Pascal. Ayton is a strong defensive C. Pascal isn't. We'd win a lot more games swapping them in my opinion.
That said Phoenix won't want Pascal because of his contract. That's why we'd have to send them OG for Ayton. Pascal would look really damn good next to Ayton and vice versa.Last edited by Primer; Thu Dec 30, 2021, 12:07 PM.
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