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  • #16
    The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

    It is so difficult to perfectly gauge the team because this team lack the dynamic wing we lose when Kawhi left. But to get back to that level, i am sure you would agree that financially, management would have to let go 1 of Van Vleet or Siakam’s salaries or both to be included in a package. Unless luck is on our side that we pick one in the draft who is NBA ready. But if not because it requires 2-3 years development, the conundrum is that both of our high dollar earners are 28 years old with low ceiling of growth (Van Vleet most especially).

    Van Vleet is too short of a Shooting guard with limited skillset to pair with Siakam. While Siakam is relegated to a spectator when Van Vleet initiates the offense as a point guard wherein he is failing miserably. Eye test would prove that but I wont mind more advanced statistical data to prove me wrong.

    Siakam is at his best in open court but becomes predictable now as opposing defenses had honed on his usual “pirouette” low post move most especially in the playoffs. That said with him and Van Vleet together on the court can easily be limited when it matters most in a 7 game series without that Numero uno option. We have seen that the last playoffs.

    OG however IMO with his limited handles is more effective as a power forward when they go small. But of course his 3 point fg and defense is a very valuable piece as a Shooting Forward to a team with Championship aspirations. 23 years old with so much more room to grow.
    If the argument is that one of them has to go because of their fit, I think it's nonsense.

    If the argument is one of them is likely outgoing in a trade for a superstar, I mean, yeah. But that's why one of them goes. If you can magically trade for a star without trading from the core, there are no fit concerns.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • #17
      DanH wrote: View Post

      If the argument is that one of them has to go because of their fit, I think it's nonsense.

      If the argument is one of them is likely outgoing in a trade for a superstar, I mean, yeah. But that's why one of them goes. If you can magically trade for a star without trading from the core, there are no fit concerns.
      We have to agree to disagree….the nonsense is fitting a square peg in a round hole.
      You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

      When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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      • #18
        The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

        We have to agree to disagree….the nonsense is fitting a square peg in a round hole.
        Who is the square peg? What's the round hole? Both players are very good at playing their positions.
        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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        • #19
          The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

          We have to agree to disagree….the nonsense is fitting a square peg in a round hole.
          Considering where this team is; (Lowry's contract, the whole TB season, post-Kawhi) I'm not convinced we have a true set roster to call any of the holes specific shapes. This team feels like it completely lacked identity this past season and that the team is very much a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none style right now. We have good defenders, we have good shooters, and capable play-makers but none are so good as to not suffer from inconsistency or take over games on a consistent basis.

          I feel like this team could really go in any direction now, we have a lot of good pieces, but unless they come together perfectly and play better as the sum of the parts, we don't have "it" right now.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #20
            Axel wrote: View Post

            Considering where this team is; (Lowry's contract, the whole TB season, post-Kawhi) I'm not convinced we have a true set roster to call any of the holes specific shapes. This team feels like it completely lacked identity this past season and that the team is very much a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none style right now. We have good defenders, we have good shooters, and capable play-makers but none are so good as to not suffer from inconsistency or take over games on a consistent basis.

            I feel like this team could really go in any direction now, we have a lot of good pieces, but unless they come together perfectly and play better as the sum of the parts, we don't have "it" right now.
            This is a fair comment especially about “jack of all trades and master of none” kind of team. I am excited what Masai can and will do this offseason
            You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

            When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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            • #21
              DanH wrote: View Post

              Who is the square peg? What's the round hole? Both players are very good at playing their positions.
              Not as much as individual fit but as I said more about the two players who both don’t complement each other.
              You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

              When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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              • #22
                The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                Not as much as individual fit but as I said more about the two players who both don’t complement each other.
                But... they do? Siakam loves being inside and playing a secondary scoring/playmaking role. Fred is much better on the perimeter and is best kept as a tertiary playmaker and a shooter more than a scorer. So, perfect fits. The problem is they both need a primary offensive hub beside them, but that's not a fit thing, that's a "both players are not superstars" thing. All this ignoring the great fits they are defensively, with both players great fits for the aggressive defensive scheme the Raptors like to run, and with Fred's dig game and ability to guard up a great complement to Pascal's switchability and role as a keystone in scramble help situations.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • #23
                  DanH wrote: View Post

                  But... they do? Siakam loves being inside and playing a secondary scoring/playmaking role. Fred is much better on the perimeter and is best kept as a tertiary playmaker and a shooter more than a scorer. So, perfect fits. The problem is they both need a primary offensive hub beside them, but that's not a fit thing, that's a "both players are not superstars" thing. All this ignoring the great fits they are defensively, with both players great fits for the aggressive defensive scheme the Raptors like to run, and with Fred's dig game and ability to guard up a great complement to Pascal's switchability and role as a keystone in scramble help situations.
                  Our heir apparent franchise PG is best kept as a "tertiary" playmaker. Welp. Has anybody told Fred that?

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                  • #24
                    golden wrote: View Post

                    Our heir apparent franchise PG is best kept as a "tertiary" playmaker. Welp. Has anybody told Fred that?
                    He's a fine PG. But our aim should be above fine, and he's a very good SG.

                    Fred as the heir apparent PG is a complete fiction as far as I'm concerned. Heir apparent leader stepping into Lowry's shoes? Sure. But he's a SG, and they've only really used him as a PG to give Lowry some rest while on-court - just have to look up Malachi's quotes about how he finds himself playing PG beside Fred versus playing SG beside Lowry. The team knows Fred best fits into that off ball role, but they've been trying to stretch everyone's game the past two stepping stone seasons.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • #25
                      DanH wrote: View Post

                      He's a fine PG. But our aim should be above fine, and he's a very good SG.

                      Fred as the heir apparent PG is a complete fiction as far as I'm concerned. Heir apparent leader stepping into Lowry's shoes? Sure. But he's a SG, and they've only really used him as a PG to give Lowry some rest while on-court - just have to look up Malachi's quotes about how he finds himself playing PG beside Fred versus playing SG beside Lowry. The team knows Fred best fits into that off ball role, but they've been trying to stretch everyone's game the past two stepping stone seasons.
                      Kyle Lowry apparently reads the same fiction as you:

                      “You guys know I have a real soft spot for Freddy, and I know he’s going to be the future franchise point guard and I’m just so proud of him, man,” star point guard Kyle Lowry said after Toronto’s season ended.
                      https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...on-a-year.html


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                      • #26
                        DanH wrote: View Post

                        But... they do? Siakam loves being inside and playing a secondary scoring/playmaking role. Fred is much better on the perimeter and is best kept as a tertiary playmaker and a shooter more than a scorer. So, perfect fits. The problem is they both need a primary offensive hub beside them, but that's not a fit thing, that's a "both players are not superstars" thing. All this ignoring the great fits they are defensively, with both players great fits for the aggressive defensive scheme the Raptors like to run, and with Fred's dig game and ability to guard up a great complement to Pascal's switchability and role as a keystone in scramble help situations.
                        Too many of great points there Dan to unpack, not all though I would agree….

                        1. You stated that Fred is much better on the perimeter and is best kept as a tertiary playmaker and a shooter than a scorer.

                        - my response: yes that SHOULD have been his role as a “spot up shooter” and he SHOULD have been maximizing that one and only strength he has offensively as he is more effective but he mostly shy away from them, he prefers to initiate the offense, dribbles the ball until close to the end of the shot clock, ending up passing a hot potato or throwing a heave while screaming “hail mary”. By that, his efficiency suffers and he becomes the new Raptors “chucker”. Another frustrating he does on the court and this is more of a mental lapse or just poor BBIQ i am not so sure but he would prefer driving the ball amongst trees and 80% of the time get stuffed under the rim.

                        2. You said that Siakam loves being inside and playing a secondary scoring/ playmaking role.

                        - my response, that is true but that was two years ago when he was still fresh off the oven so to speak. Now that opposing defenses have scouted him and game planned him, they are able to predict the direction of where he spins when he post up. This was more happening in the playoffs and high profile games against elite defenses. What he should be doing now is developing a pull up jumper and improving his three point shooting. For now his strength will always be in open court situations and he excels against teams with lack of length or lack of an elite one on one defender.

                        Now that we unpacked both players strengths and flaws offensively, I am sure you would able to deduce a logical conclusion why if combined, we would be able to agree that they dont fit when both are together on the court. You still can agree to disagree and I am fine with that

                        Defensively, they are great and we can both agree but that is strawman.




                        You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                        When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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                        • #27
                          golden wrote: View Post

                          Kyle Lowry apparently reads the same fiction as you:



                          https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...on-a-year.html

                          Yes that is quiet obvious and we would be just fooling ourselves to believe that they are not grooming Van Vleet as the heir apparent.

                          Unfortunately those shoes are too big to fit and even how we pound this rock, that will never happen.
                          You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                          When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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                          • #28
                            The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                            Too many of great points there Dan to unpack, not all though I would agree….

                            1. You stated that Fred is much better on the perimeter and is best kept as a tertiary playmaker and a shooter than a scorer.

                            - my response: yes that SHOULD have been his role as a “spot up shooter” and he SHOULD have been maximizing that one and only strength he has offensively as he is more effective but he mostly shy away from them, he prefers to initiate the offense, dribbles the ball until close to the end of the shot clock, ending up passing a hot potato or throwing a heave while screaming “hail mary”. By that, his efficiency suffers and he becomes the new Raptors “chucker”. Another frustrating he does on the court and this is more of a mental lapse or just poor BBIQ i am not so sure but he would prefer driving the ball amongst trees and 80% of the time get stuffed under the rim.

                            2. You said that Siakam loves being inside and playing a secondary scoring/ playmaking role.

                            - my response, that is true but that was two years ago when he was still fresh off the oven so to speak. Now that opposing defenses have scouted him and game planned him, they are able to predict the direction of where he spins when he post up. This was more happening in the playoffs and high profile games against elite defenses. What he should be doing now is developing a pull up jumper and improving his three point shooting. For now his strength will always be in open court situations and he excels against teams with lack of length or lack of an elite one on one defender.

                            Now that we unpacked both players strengths and flaws offensively, I am sure you would able to deduce a logical conclusion why if combined, we would be able to agree that they dont fit when both are together on the court. You still can agree to disagree and I am fine with that

                            Defensively, they are great and we can both agree but that is strawman.
                            So, your position is that Fred fits great beside Pascal if used correctly? Great, we agree.

                            Your point about Pascal I don't understand. Pascal has been a good scorer this year, entirely on the strength of his inside game, and most of his playmaking opportunities also come from getting inside. His efficiency struggles this year basically boil down to not hitting his threes.

                            They fit perfectly fine. The team trying to stretch both players out into bigger roles to see what they have over the past two seasons does not mean they don't fit, it means the team was willing to sacrifice short term wins for development, which is exactly what they should have been doing.

                            Your points don't seem to be at all about actual fit. Seems like you just don't like the individual player each has performed as, with or without the other, over the past couple of seasons. And, hey, fair enough, have fun with that. But it's nothing to do with their fit.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                            • #29
                              golden wrote: View Post

                              Kyle Lowry apparently reads the same fiction as you:

                              Yes, I too always believe everything Lowry says in public and take it at face value. I think this is a smart thing to do. I also believe that the Raptors are always thinking the same thing that their players are thinking. I certainly believe that was the case with DeMar DeRozan, who clearly expected the Raptors to take the direction they did.

                              Fred thinks of himself as a PG so Lowry refers to him as a PG. But the Raptors already took the ball out of his hands quite a bit whenever they had Malachi out there with him towards the end of the season. They know what they have.
                              twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                              • #30
                                DanH wrote: View Post

                                So, your position is that Fred fits great beside Pascal if used correctly? Great, we agree.

                                Your point about Pascal I don't understand. Pascal has been a good scorer this year, entirely on the strength of his inside game, and most of his playmaking opportunities also come from getting inside. His efficiency struggles this year basically boil down to not hitting his threes.

                                They fit perfectly fine. The team trying to stretch both players out into bigger roles to see what they have over the past two seasons does not mean they don't fit, it means the team was willing to sacrifice short term wins for development, which is exactly what they should have been doing.

                                Your points don't seem to be at all about actual fit. Seems like you just don't like the individual player each has performed as, with or without the other, over the past couple of seasons. And, hey, fair enough, have fun with that. But it's nothing to do with their fit.
                                At least we found “close” to a common ground (IF), yet there is still a big gap there, haha.

                                Pascal is shooting 59% less than 5 feet and 40% between 5-9 feet. He ranked way below amongst the rest of his peers of same position and height. He is shooting 41% at the 15-19 feet area which is not bad, honestly.

                                https://www.nba.com/stats/players/sh...FG%20PCT&dir=1

                                An example: MPJ is shooting 75% (less than 5 feet) and 47% (5-9 feet) respectively.

                                So that we both disagree. The low post position is not actually his biggest strength.

                                It would be hypocritical for any of us here in this forum that we don’t have our own biases when we evaluate and value our own Raptors and most especially the other team’s players. However from my own perspective, Van Vleet and Siakam have some significant individual weaknesses offensively that they don’t hide each other’s flaws, the fit is not there.

                                Hard to envision a team without Lowry and having a weak Point Guard in Flynn and Van Vleet as the shooting guard while GTJ coming off the bench as the 6th man…OR have Van Vleet assume the role Lowry vacated and have GTJ who’s strength is more of a spot shooter rather than the pro-typical SG who can break defenses be the off guard while Flynn as the back up point guard.

                                A lot hinges on who they pick in this upcoming draft.

                                Having to carry two 28 years old, one will be earning 33 million and the other 19.5 million, a total of 52 million and both are not complementing each other’s game is not a prudent way of retooling a team IMO … financially to improve the team, the very least is for one to be traded to address a more pressing need.

                                Last edited by The Claw Reborn; Tue Jun 8, 2021, 07:57 PM.
                                You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                                When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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