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  • golden wrote: View Post

    The PG I want can get our bigs easier shots at the rim and can run PnRs. The PG I want can create advantages of the dribble, leveraging & transferring those advantages to other teammates... again for easier buckets. The PG I want controls tempo & pace and understand which teammate needs the ball, when & how to get it to them to get or keep them in rhythm.

    All of the above, is decidedly.... not Fred.

    The PG I want can also play off-ball and is a deadly 3-pt shooter, who can defend opposing guards. That "used to be" Fred, when he could hit a shot and wasn't getting repeatedly blown by.
    The PG you want is.... who exactly? Can you name a single player who does those things? Is that player a superstar?
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • LJ2 wrote: View Post

      You're talking about having a PG that shoots like Gary or historically like Fred and OG as 2 shooters in a line up with Koloko, Pascal and Barnes. We literally have or have had Fred (when he could shoot), OG AND Gary out there as 3 shooters with Barnes and Pascal and weren't able to make anyone pay the price.
      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills Primer LOL.
      Having shooters out there is of limited value when you have no rim pressure, especially when those shooters too often take the ball away from the guys who should be on ball. Gary and Fred use too many on-ball possessions for our small looks to work (never mind the defensive issues with those small looks...).

      Ideally of course your C is a roll threat who can also step out and hit a jumper, but regardless of whether they manage to find that, the bigger key will be whether Scottie eventually establishes himself as a threat from the perimeter. That's the superstar leap that the team is banking on making the entire thing work.
      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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      • DanH wrote: View Post

        The PG you want is.... who exactly? Can you name a single player who does those things? Is that player a superstar?
        Haliburton is pretty close. Fred is very, very far away. And Lowry did most of those things when he was here, and he wasn't a "superstar".

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        • golden wrote: View Post

          Haliburton is pretty close. Fred is very, very far away. And Lowry did most of those things when he was here, and he wasn't a "superstar".
          Lowry was pretty close to a superstar.

          And I agree, it's almost possible to find a non-superstar who does all the things you want. That almost is pretty important.

          In any case, my larger point was that although YOU want that PG, the team very likely does not. Bringing in a player whose value will be at its greatest on the ball, thus limiting the value of your two most important core pieces, is not the direction I'd be assuming they go.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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          • Scoot Henderson

            Or a healthy Lonzo.
            Last edited by Kagemusha; Tue Jan 10, 2023, 04:38 PM.

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            • DanH wrote: View Post

              Lowry was pretty close to a superstar.

              And I agree, it's almost possible to find a non-superstar who does all the things you want. That almost is pretty important.

              In any case, my larger point was that although YOU want that PG, the team very likely does not. Bringing in a player whose value will be at its greatest on the ball, thus limiting the value of your two most important core pieces, is not the direction I'd be assuming they go.
              Lowry again. Over the years, he adjusted his usage, as well as scoring or facilitating as the team needed. It depended on the teammates around him. That's a real PG. You want a guy who CAN do all those things, and knows when to use them for the betterment of the team.

              Fred simply can't do those real PG things at a high level, other than 3 & D.

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              • golden wrote: View Post

                Lowry again. Over the years, he adjusted his usage, as well as scoring or facilitating as the team needed. It depended on the teammates around him. That's a real PG. You want a guy who CAN do all those things, and knows when to use them for the betterment of the team.

                Fred simply can't do those real PG things at a high level, other than 3 & D.
                Lowry graded out as a roughly top 5 player by impact metrics for a solid half decade. Not a whole lot of those lying around.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • all this needing a 'true pg' talk is simply stupid. no idea how that narrative got started just because fred hasn't been playing up to his potential.

                  the only time lowry 'adjusted his usage' was when kawhi joined the team lol.

                  remember when lowy/derozan led this team and ended up having the worst fg% in playoff history?

                  if the definition of a 'real/true pg' is now just a superstar pg lol then well..duh? yes i'd love to switch every player to a 'true/real' version of that too then.
                  Last edited by iblastoff; Tue Jan 10, 2023, 05:25 PM.

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                  • DanH wrote: View Post

                    Having shooters out there is of limited value when you have no rim pressure, especially when those shooters too often take the ball away from the guys who should be on ball. Gary and Fred use too many on-ball possessions for our small looks to work (never mind the defensive issues with those small looks...).

                    Ideally of course your C is a roll threat who can also step out and hit a jumper, but regardless of whether they manage to find that, the bigger key will be whether Scottie eventually establishes himself as a threat from the perimeter. That's the superstar leap that the team is banking on making the entire thing work.
                    Having players that can put pressure on the rim is of limited value if you don't have enough shooters. They go hand in hand.

                    Reduce Fred and Gary's on-ball possessions like we started the season but you still need them out there to open up the court for Pascal and Scottie.

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                    • LJ2 wrote: View Post

                      You're talking about having a PG that shoots like Gary or historically like Fred and OG as 2 shooters in a line up with Koloko, Pascal and Barnes. We literally have or have had Fred (when he could shoot), OG AND Gary out there as 3 shooters with Barnes and Pascal and weren't able to make anyone pay the price.
                      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills Primer LOL.
                      Fred isn't a PG.

                      Also lineup I want has a C so no Gary.

                      PG, OG, Scottie, Pascal, C
                      Last edited by Primer; Wed Jan 11, 2023, 01:13 AM.

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                      • This page needs a bump

                        I made a comment to someone earlier that one comp to look at for Scottie is the Joker. Long way to go in the off balance fadeaway shooting but the way he makes those passes as a big man....very Niko-like. Watch the second one where he clearly sees O.G. in the corner before he makes his move and then unleashes the pass when you think he must have forgotten about him

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                        • ^ thats why we need scottie to be our pg. not trying to slight fred but he couldnt make those passes even if he wanted to hes just too short

                          short guys no matter how good just get exploited in todays nba. We cant have any weak (short) links in our starting lineup down the road

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                          • Yuri Gagarin wrote: View Post
                            ^ thats why we need scottie to be our pg. not trying to slight fred but he couldnt make those passes even if he wanted to hes just too short

                            short guys no matter how good just get exploited in todays nba. We cant have any weak (short) links in our starting lineup down the road
                            https://youtu.be/w-LrxN_xjws

                            More on this very interesting topic.

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                            • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

                              https://youtu.be/w-LrxN_xjws

                              More on this very interesting topic.
                              i definitely want the ball in scottie's hands the most as decision maker going forward, but a few teams have been trying to take away the first advantage CJ brought up (which is that the guys guarding him are not used to guarding primary ball handlers) recently. boston had pritchard pressure him in the backcourt the other night and made him very uncomfortable, and the kings did the same last night with mitchell to start the fourth quarter (scottie either gave it up immediately or the raptors didn't even inbound him the ball, having precious bring it up instead).

                              something to consider if they trade fred. still need a ball handler that can handle that kind of pressure.

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                              • Lowry knew. Game recognize game.

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