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  • golden wrote: View Post

    Yep. If a superstar becomes available in trade, Wolves would offer KAT long before they'd make Ant & Gobert available. They are building "with" KAT..... not "around" KAT. They tried a few iterations to build "around" KAT and it didn't work... which was great, because they sucked enough to get the #1 pick (Edwards).

    The question is if Scottie is more like a KAT type of "build with" guy, and if we're still looking for the actual guy.
    It shifted over time from build around to build with but the plan started with building around KAT. We're building around Scottie and if we end up drafting an Ant level talent it may shift to build with. I think Scottie is better and has a much higher ceiling than KAT so I think build around will continue to be the optics. Either way they were still bringing in players who compliment KAT so the strategy really isn't any different if they're building around or building with, just different optics for fans.

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    • LJ2 wrote: View Post

      In the grand scheme of team building were they off by a season maybe before they should have given up on that core? They were a 4th seed in the first year post-Lowry with the ROY. Almost unheard of to not continue to explore that path when the other option is to blow it up and spend years rebuilding. For me I think once Fred left for Houston that was the point I wanted MU to start the rebuild. Not because Fred was some great player but because we needed both Fred and a superstar to contend and now we were down two major pieces. Instead they waited to move Pascal and he decided to control his own future. If they moved him last off season I think they could have landed a young player equivalent to an IQ or RJ, if not better.
      Almost unheard of, yes, but Presti blew up OKC's PG / Westbrook core, way in advance, surprising everybody by kicking off the rebuild and trading a guy 1 season removed from league MVP + a perennial All-NBA guy.

      That said, top-level executives are paid for foresight, forecasting and asset portfolio managment. That means doing your asset evaluations early and executing buy low/sell high transactions, rather than waiting until you have no options and the knowledge is obvious to everybody else in the market.

      The legitimate knock against Masai & Bobby, post-chip, is the time it takes them to "evaluate" which erodes asset value & reduces options and opportunities.

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      • golden wrote: View Post

        Almost unheard of, yes, but Presti blew up OKC's PG / Westbrook core, way in advance, surprising everybody by kicking off the rebuild and trading a guy 1 season removed from league MVP + a perennial All-NBA guy.

        That said, top-level executives are paid for foresight, forecasting and asset portfolio managment. That means doing your asset evaluations early and executing buy low/sell high transactions, rather than waiting until you have no options and the knowledge is obvious to everybody else in the market.

        The legitimate knock against Masai & Bobby, post-chip, is the time it takes them to "evaluate" which erodes asset value & reduces options and opportunities.
        russ and PG were both traded in the summer of 2019, so two seasons removed from that (bogus) MVP season.

        also the rebuild was kick started by PG requesting to go to the clippers, so done because they were forced to and had a unique opportunity to grab a historic haul, not because of elite foresight.

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        • chris wrote: View Post

          russ and PG were both traded in the summer of 2019, so two seasons removed from that (bogus) MVP season.

          also the rebuild was kick started by PG requesting to go to the clippers, so done because they were forced to and had a unique opportunity to grab a historic haul, not because of elite foresight.
          PG still had 3 years left on his contract.

          99% of front offices would’ve tried to convince PG to stay and then started to splurge FRPs to add talent around him & Russ to show they were serious about competing for championships.

          Heck, even Masai burnt up FRPs to add talent (*cough *Thad, Jak) around less accomplished players.

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          • golden wrote: View Post

            PG still had 3 years left on his contract.

            99% of front offices would’ve tried to convince PG to stay and then started to splurge FRPs to add talent around him & Russ to show they were serious about competing for championships.

            Heck, even Masai burnt up FRPs to add talent (*cough *Thad, Jak) around less accomplished players.
            i just don't agree with this and think it's pretty revisionist history.

            yes PG had 3 years left but then the clippers came calling with the greatest trade package of all time and made the decision to trade a guy who didn't want to be there pretty easy.

            then once he's gone the decision to trade russ was a no brainer as you already saw how limited a ceiling the team had both with russ solo (prior to PG) and with PG. and much of the NBA had already started souring on russ by then.

            like those decisions were not remotely controversial and pretty universally applauded. you're acting like they broke up a juggernaut. they won a total of 3 playoff games in two years with PG and russ

            the real ballsy move by them was to completely blow it up the year after that, when they still had a fuckload of pick equity and a young potential future franchise player, but still made the playoffs with CP and dennis. i hated that move for them as i though they could've easily kept building around shai while winning, but it worked out for them

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            • OKC also had enough data to know they couldn't win a championship with Russ. They couldn't do it with Russ/KD/Harden, they couldn't with Russ/PG and couldn't with Russ/CP. The amount of time they invested in those cores pales in comparison to the Raps giving the Fred/Pascal/OG core two seasons to see what they could do. Especially after the first season together was so promising, it's kind of hard to fault them.

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              • Yeah I don't believe OKC traded PG to move on, they traded him because of the trade package they got for him. Clippers weren't signing Kawhi if they didn't trade for PG. Thats when OKC decided to move on from Westbrook as well since they already traded PG.

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                • chris wrote: View Post

                  i just don't agree with this and think it's pretty revisionist history.

                  yes PG had 3 years left but then the clippers came calling with the greatest trade package of all time and made the decision to trade a guy who didn't want to be there pretty easy.

                  then once he's gone the decision to trade russ was a no brainer as you already saw how limited a ceiling the team had both with russ solo (prior to PG) and with PG. and much of the NBA had already started souring on russ by then.

                  like those decisions were not remotely controversial and pretty universally applauded. you're acting like they broke up a juggernaut. they won a total of 3 playoff games in two years with PG and russ

                  the real ballsy move by them was to completely blow it up the year after that, when they still had a fuckload of pick equity and a young potential future franchise player, but still made the playoffs with CP and dennis. i hated that move for them as i though they could've easily kept building around shai while winning, but it worked out for them
                  And the package really wasn't that much greater than what the Jazz got for Donovan Mitchell... just a variation of the standard superstar trade package: young prospect (Shai), picks & cap relief (Gallo). The real genius, in hindsight, was projecting Shai. If Shai was just a guy, this would look like a bad trade... not the no-brainer you are trying to make it out to be.

                  At the time, it was a huge deal for OKC to trade Dipo & Sabonis for PG in the first place.... an impending UFA in his prime. It was an even bigger deal to get PG to re-sign with the NBA's smallest and least attractive media market. It was completely the opposite of a no-brainer to not continue building on the PG/Russ core and start selling hope all over again to the fanbase that also had suffered through losing KD (and Harden earlier). The fanbase was already accusing ownership of being cheap. 99% of other GMs would've wimped out.


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                  • A.I wrote: View Post
                    Yeah I don't believe OKC traded PG to move on, they traded him because of the trade package they got for him. Clippers weren't signing Kawhi if they didn't trade for PG. Thats when OKC decided to move on from Westbrook as well since they already traded PG.
                    If Shai doesn't blow up, that package is pretty shitty. It was a huge risk, not a no-brainer.

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                    • LJ2 wrote: View Post
                      OKC also had enough data to know they couldn't win a championship with Russ. They couldn't do it with Russ/KD/Harden, they couldn't with Russ/PG and couldn't with Russ/CP. The amount of time they invested in those cores pales in comparison to the Raps giving the Fred/Pascal/OG core two seasons to see what they could do. Especially after the first season together was so promising, it's kind of hard to fault them.
                      agree with this but would just say that they didn't try with russ/CP as they were traded for one another.

                      they did try with russ solo for one season between KD and PG, which resulted in the most comically ball-dominant season of all time when russ' usage and assist percentage totaled 99% (!)

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                      • golden wrote: View Post

                        If Shai doesn't blow up, that package is pretty shitty. It was a huge risk, not a no-brainer.
                        Clippers also threw in 5 FRPs. Shai was the 11th pick coming off his rookie season. Maybe it wasn't a no brainer, but pretty hard to pass that up.

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                        • chris wrote: View Post

                          agree with this but would just say that they didn't try with russ/CP as they were traded for one another.

                          they did try with russ solo for one season between KD and PG, which resulted in the most comically ball-dominant season of all time when russ' usage and assist percentage totaled 99% (!)
                          That's correct, my mistake.

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                          • golden wrote: View Post

                            And the package really wasn't that much greater than what the Jazz got for Donovan Mitchell... just a variation of the standard superstar trade package: young prospect (Shai), picks & cap relief (Gallo). The real genius, in hindsight, was projecting Shai. If Shai was just a guy, this would look like a bad trade... not the no-brainer you are trying to make it out to be.

                            At the time, it was a huge deal for OKC to trade Dipo & Sabonis for PG in the first place.... an impending UFA in his prime. It was an even bigger deal to get PG to re-sign with the NBA's smallest and least attractive media market. It was completely the opposite of a no-brainer to not continue building on the PG/Russ core and start selling hope all over again to the fanbase that also had suffered through losing KD (and Harden earlier). The fanbase was already accusing ownership of being cheap. 99% of other GMs would've wimped out.

                            if it was such a huge risk they would have got a lot of flak for it and i remember none of that. i only remember thinking i can't believe how awesome that is for them.

                            here's the only trade grade i can find that isn't retrospective:

                            George's trade request, made to the Thunder organization by his agent, Aaron Mintz, in recent days, according to ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski, obviously played an important role in this deal getting done. Still, I think it's fair to wonder whether the Clippers' willingness to deal so many draft picks along with their best young prospect (Gilgeous-Alexander) was more important than George's wishes....

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                            • A.I wrote: View Post

                              Clippers also threw in 5 FRPs. Shai was the 11th pick coming off his rookie season. Maybe it wasn't a no brainer, but pretty hard to pass that up.
                              and swaps. it was as much pick equity as allowed to be included. plus shai. it was pretty no-brainer

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                              • The PG trade is about as outlier as it gets. The Clippers weren't trading for one top 10 guy, they were trading for a top 5 guy in Kawhi (who was agreeing to sign with them IF they traded for George) AND for George. So it was a historic package for that reason.
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