Everything Scottie Barnes

[The Great One]

I don’t know why people feel like you can’t be excited for a player and still be realistic enough to know that there will be growing pains. No one is expecting Scottie to be Vince or Lebron in his rookie season lol. That does not mean we can’t be hyped and excited to see this young man play. Sometimes I wonder why some fans even root for this team when they are so afraid of getting excited or being optimistic.

Facts

[TrueTorontoFan]

I don’t know why people feel like you can’t be excited for a player and still be realistic enough to know that there will be growing pains. No one is expecting Scottie to be Vince or Lebron in his rookie season lol. That does not mean we can’t be hyped and excited to see this young man play. Sometimes I wonder why some fans even root for this team when they are so afraid of getting excited or being optimistic.

because people outside of this forum (reddit) get crazy

[inthepaint]

I'm excited about Scottie like everyone else. I like his attitude, the fact he's embracing the city and teammates, leadership, defence etc. That said, can he put the ball in the hoop? I personally want to see that in bunches here before I anoint him an 'alpha' and talk about him on the same breath as Magic Johnson and Pippen.

The potential is there for sure, but what this team need is half-court scoring. I love the players with hustle, high energy, noble teammates, locker room motivators, defence-first soldiers that are easy to cheer for, but ultimately, we need buckets.

I think he's got all the tools for that, but it will take time. In other words, it's ok to be high on him (I am, he's a 4th overall pick), but I'm also aware things will take time. The irony is that a large part of the fanbase (mainly reddit) that are super high on him mostly due to instagram and pickup games may sadly be the first ones to turn on him if he doesn't meet what they expect.

Ultimately though, I wanna see him start over Birch. OG-Scottie-Siakam. Those our best frontcourt players. Start them and get right to your positionless vision. You rotate these 3 as C and they can handle any opposing big out there.

[LJ2]

I'm excited about Scottie like everyone else. I like his attitude, the fact he's embracing the city and teammates, leadership, defence etc. That said, can he put the ball in the hoop? I personally want to see that in bunches here before I anoint him an 'alpha' and talk about him on the same breath as Magic Johnson and Pippen.

The potential is there for sure, but what this team need is half-court scoring. I love the players with hustle, high energy, noble teammates, locker room motivators, defence-first soldiers that are easy to cheer for, but ultimately, we need buckets.

I think he's got all the tools for that, but it will take time. In other words, it's ok to be high on him (I am, he's a 4th overall pick), but I'm also aware things will take time. The irony is that a large part of the fanbase (mainly reddit) that are super high on him mostly due to instagram and pickup games may sadly be the first ones to turn on him if he doesn't meet what they expect.

Ultimately though, I wanna see him start over Birch. OG-Scottie-Siakam. Those our best frontcourt players. Start them and get right to your positionless vision. You rotate these 3 as C and they can handle any opposing big out there.

I would love to see that line up but it's tough to picture it against teams that have a JV type bruiser. Then again, I can't picture Birch against JV either.

[MixxAOR]

Don't put all your eggs in Barnes basket. Maybe there wasn't a sure pick at 4 who can fix half-court issues. Suggs also struggles in half-court for example.

We most likely getting a good pick this year as well. So right now hopefully we'll stack up on young talent through this rebuild who can addess multiple issues.

[inthepaint]

I would love to see that line up but it's tough to picture it against teams that have a JV type bruiser. Then again, I can't picture Birch against JV either.

Yes, that's the dogmatic ancient argument we all hear, and it will prevent us from starting our 5 best players. Birch is pretty much the same height and weight as Siakam, Barnes and OG, except less mobile and with a more limited handle than all three. Not any better shot blocker or rebounder than any of them either.

Any marginal benefit Birch would provide guarding a bruiser type C (the 6 times out of 82 we play one), would be vastly outweighed by the benefit and versatility a trio of Siakam-OG-Barnes would bring, on both ends of the floor. Offensivenly you got a lot more ball handling and mobility. Defensively you can switch seamlessly with all of them able to defend quick guards, negating the other team the ability to create mismatches. In transition you're quicker. You're also developing your star rookie quicker.

[GOLDBLUM]

Yes, that's the dogmatic ancient argument we all hear, and it will prevent us from starting our 5 best players. Birch is pretty much the same height and weight as Siakam, Barnes and OG, except less mobile and with a more limited handle than all three. Not any better shot blocker or rebounder than any of them either.

Any marginal benefit Birch would provide guarding a bruiser type C (the 6 times out of 82 we play one), would be vastly outweighed by the benefit and versatility a trio of Siakam-OG-Barnes would bring, on both ends of the floor. Offensivenly you got a lot more ball handling and mobility. Defensively you can switch seamlessly with all of them able to defend quick guards, negating the other team the ability to create mismatches. In transition you're quicker. You're also developing your star rookie quicker.

Highly doubt we see that as a frequent starting lineup but I definitely expect to see it as a closing lineup, when it comes time to bring home the wins.

You can call that a dogmatic ancient argument ... I suspect Nurse calls it game management.

We shall see!

[LJ2]

Yes, that's the dogmatic ancient argument we all hear, and it will prevent us from starting our 5 best players. Birch is pretty much the same height and weight as Siakam, Barnes and OG, except less mobile and with a more limited handle than all three. Not any better shot blocker or rebounder than any of them either.

Any marginal benefit Birch would provide guarding a bruiser type C (the 6 times out of 82 we play one), would be vastly outweighed by the benefit and versatility a trio of Siakam-OG-Barnes would bring, on both ends of the floor. Offensivenly you got a lot more ball handling and mobility. Defensively you can switch seamlessly with all of them able to defend quick guards, negating the other team the ability to create mismatches. In transition you're quicker. You're also developing your star rookie quicker.

I agree with Goldblum's comments, you will see that line up to close games perhaps, but not an every situation. Have to consider that you may want to protect our guys from getting beat up too much over a long 82 game series, between Embiid, the Lopez's, Steven Adams (now in the East), Vuc, Adebayo etc, I suspect they will be facing big C's far more than 6 times over 82.

No way they want Siakam getting roughed up trying to defend a bigger guy and be our leading scorer as well.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Highly doubt we see that as a frequent starting lineup but I definitely expect to see it as a closing lineup, when it comes time to bring home the wins.

You can call that a dogmatic ancient argument ... I suspect Nurse calls it game management.

We shall see!

The other thing is running that line up you would see who ever is the primary center (likely siakam) get worn down throughout a season. It is a play off line up it is a line up you will see here and there in the regular season.. As you pointed out its a closing line up.

[Primer]

Yes, that's the dogmatic ancient argument we all hear, and it will prevent us from starting our 5 best players. Birch is pretty much the same height and weight as Siakam, Barnes and OG, except less mobile and with a more limited handle than all three. Not any better shot blocker or rebounder than any of them either.

Any marginal benefit Birch would provide guarding a bruiser type C (the 6 times out of 82 we play one), would be vastly outweighed by the benefit and versatility a trio of Siakam-OG-Barnes would bring, on both ends of the floor. Offensivenly you got a lot more ball handling and mobility. Defensively you can switch seamlessly with all of them able to defend quick guards, negating the other team the ability to create mismatches. In transition you're quicker. You're also developing your star rookie quicker.

This statement is objectively wrong, by a lot.

Birch is a much better rebounder and shot blocker than all of them.

Per 36 Rebounds
Birch 9.1
Siakam 7.3
OG 6
Barnes ? (5.9 rebounds per 36 in college)


Per 36 Blocks
Birch 1.4
Siakam 0.7
OG 0.8
Barnes ? (0.6 blocks per 36 in college)


Now that we've covered how objectively better Birch is at rebounding and shot blocking. There is also the subjective part from watching games. Birch is willing to muscle up on big opposing centers, and because he's not expected to do anything on offense, he can put 100% effort into his defensive assignment. No opposing centers are going to have an easy time playing against Birch, even if they do outweigh him by a good bit.

I think Birch fits our roster perfectly in that he can play against big centers while also being smaller and faster and able to keep up with our fast break transition opportunities.

[SkywalkerAC]

Fouls are another aspect of being the starting centre. Barnes can play free and easy off the bench and not have to worry about such things. Let Birch set the tone by laying down the wood.

[golden]

This statement is objectively wrong, by a lot.

Birch is a much better rebounder and shot blocker than all of them.

Per 36 Rebounds
Birch 9.1
Siakam 7.3
OG 6
Barnes ? (5.9 rebounds per 36 in college)


Per 36 Blocks
Birch 1.4
Siakam 0.7
OG 0.8
Barnes ? (0.6 blocks per 36 in college)


Now that we've covered how objectively better Birch is at rebounding and shot blocking. There is also the subjective part from watching games. Birch is willing to muscle up on big opposing centers, and because he's not expected to do anything on offense, he can put 100% effort into his defensive assignment. No opposing centers are going to have an easy time playing against Birch, even if they do outweigh him by a good bit.

I think Birch fits our roster perfectly in that he can play against big centers while also being smaller and faster and able to keep up with our fast break transition opportunities.

Ultra small sample size... but fwiw Barnes averaged: ~ 9 Reb per 36 in Summer League. His role(s) could be much different than it was in college. At this point, it's hard to know if he'll be mostly guarding the interior or perimeter, which will have a big impact on how many rebounds he gets.

[planetmars]

I know you guys are talking about Barnes. But I think Boucher is the better candidate to play C over Birch or Barnes, at least at the beginning of the year (Barnes can take Pascal's minutes when he's rehabbing).

First, TRB% is a better metric than RPG let alone RPG/36 IMO. And in that sense, Boucher is actually our best rebounder. He grabbed 15.3% of the available rebounds that could be had. Compared to 13.7% (Birch) or 11.1% (Pascal). Barnes was decent in college in that stat as well. He grabbed 11.1% of his teams rebounds but with a tiny sample of 14 games, and only 2 as starter. His raw rebounds looked like crap. But this metric showed he was capable.


I think Boucher should get the most time at the 5 next season.

Pascal/OG/Fred/Khem had a 4-man Net Rating of 13.0 in 122 minutes.
Pascal/OG/Fred/Chris had a 4-man Net Rating of 18.7 in 143 minutes.

Both positive, but Boucher was the better big man.

[inthepaint]

This statement is objectively wrong, by a lot.

Birch is a much better rebounder and shot blocker than all of them.

Per 36 Rebounds
Birch 9.1
Siakam 7.3
OG 6
Barnes ? (5.9 rebounds per 36 in college)


Per 36 Blocks
Birch 1.4
Siakam 0.7
OG 0.8
Barnes ? (0.6 blocks per 36 in college)


Now that we've covered how objectively better Birch is at rebounding and shot blocking. There is also the subjective part from watching games. Birch is willing to muscle up on big opposing centers, and because he's not expected to do anything on offense, he can put 100% effort into his defensive assignment. No opposing centers are going to have an easy time playing against Birch, even if they do outweigh him by a good bit.

I think Birch fits our roster perfectly in that he can play against big centers while also being smaller and faster and able to keep up with our fast break transition opportunities.

Sample size is too small. Per 36 can notoriously skew things. Birch is alright but he's nothing special when it comes to rebounding or shot blocking. Difference is if he gets switched onto a guard he's not going to contain it as well as Scottie, OG or Pascal. It's a small C we picked off waivers that will play ahead of our 4th overall pick, despite both being the same height and weight.

[inthepaint]

I agree with Goldblum's comments, you will see that line up to close games perhaps, but not an every situation. Have to consider that you may want to protect our guys from getting beat up too much over a long 82 game series, between Embiid, the Lopez's, Steven Adams (now in the East), Vuc, Adebayo etc, I suspect they will be facing big C's far more than 6 times over 82.

No way they want Siakam getting roughed up trying to defend a bigger guy and be our leading scorer as well.

Adebayo is not really a bruiser C. He's got a good inside game but he's not out there beating people up physically in the post. Same height as Siakam and barnes too. Lopez and Vucevic spend a lot of time in the perimeter shooting 3's. I'll give you Adams, there's another 4 games for ~10 out of 82.

OG-Scottie-Siakam are our 3 best frontcourt players. If that's the go-to lineup to close it when games are on the line, that's what you should start too, your 5 best players. I get the argument of physical preservation there for Siakam, but him starting at C doesn't mean he's going to be fighting Steven Adams the whole game night in night out.

The whole idea of playing him with barnes and OG is that not only these 3 can switch seamlessly when the opposing offence screens, but you can also proactively rotate OG and barnes (and birch too off the bench), into the opposing C as needed. If 33 yr old Lopez goes 2010 on us and start brusing people down low, then yeah save Siakam's body and put birch out there, but that type of situation is getting less and less common every year. Like Jack Armstrong points out, the game now is almost more physical in the perimeter with the navigation of screens and off-ball movement, then it is down low.

Teams should start their 5 best players because that's your best shot at taking control of the game early and establish a lead, rather then being on chase mode the whole game and waiting for the 4th quarter crunch time to bring your best lineup in.