Everything Scottie Barnes

[The Claw Reborn]

….and a hot grenade pass from VanVleet to a Scottie Barnes with 3 seconds to spare is not a pass…..it is a Hail Mary pass

[DanH]

I don't disagree with that but do handoffs count as passes? It seems like at least a bunch of times a game, Freddy will bring the ball up, hand it off to Scottie, they'll circle and Scottie will hand it off back to Fred. Not really a pass

That's why I quoted the FGA generation too. Fred passes lead to 4.1 FGA for Scottie. That's nearly the most on the team (4.2 of GTJ's FGA's come off Fred passes - though of course a lot of those are drive and kick, 2.4 of those 4.2 are threes, while Scottie doesn't have nearly the quick trigger GTJ does on the perimeter even with his improvements, so only about 1 of his Fred-pass FGA's are three pointers). OG and Pascal get 4.0 and 3.3 FGA's per game off Fred passes. To suggest Fred is feeding those guys more than Scottie is just not in line with reality.

Never mind the idea that other guys are feeding Scottie more, which is even more out of whack, as I noted, no one else's passes to Scottie lead to more than 1.4 FGA per game. Heck, the entire rest of the team added up has passed to Scottie leading to a FGA 145 times. Fred by himself has done so 94 times.

[DanH]

Dudes agreeing to your post without even understanding the facts LOL.

Granted VanVleet started the game with the game objective of involving Scottie in the offense….are those effective passes? Were those passes in the right spots where Scottie can easily get to score resulting to a credited assist for VanVleet? Because if they are, how come they are not reflected to the APGs of VanVleet?

or as what the previous two posters ahead of me stated, could those just handoffs to Scottie, 22 feet away from the ring with no indication that Scottie is squared to make a shot

But hey man, as long as you bringing facts and statistical data to an argument, the horde will just nod without thinking lol.

Yeah, those 4 FGA Scottie gets every game off passes from Fred are definitely plays where he passes it right back to him at the perimeter. Hence him registering a FGA! You're so smart, you got me. Maybe he meant to pass it to Fred and it just hit the rim or went in by accident. My bad.

[The Claw Reborn]

Dudes agreeing to your post without even understanding the facts LOL.

Granted VanVleet started the game with the game objective of involving Scottie in the offense….are those effective passes? Were those passes in the right spots where Scottie can easily get to score resulting to a credited assist for VanVleet? Because if they are, how come they are not reflected to the APGs of VanVleet?

or as what the previous two posters ahead of me stated, could those just handoffs to Scottie, 22 feet away from the ring with no indication that Scottie is squared to make a shot

But hey man, as long as you bringing facts and statistical data to an argument, the horde will just nod without thinking lol.

Yeah, those 4 FGA Scottie gets every game off passes from Fred are definitely plays where he passes it right back to him at the perimeter. Hence him registering a FGA! You're so smart, you got me. Maybe he meant to pass it to Fred and it just hit the rim or went in by accident. My bad.

Yes I agree and my bad to totally agree to Kagemusha and it is just silly to say that VanVleet is totally ignoring Scottie. So you are right on that !

But what I am asking…were those passes effective passes? were those passes resulting to a higher field goal percentage, spots where Scottie can easily score and HIM getting a credited assist?

His pass to Birch is more effective with Khem shooting 67%, pass to Siakam generated 42.7 eFG%, pass to Svi generated 42.3% eFG while Scottie is only at 40.4 eFg%.

why I thought the eye test is Not showing his chemistry with Scottie.

[TrueTorontoFan]

That's why I quoted the FGA generation too. Fred passes lead to 4.1 FGA for Scottie. That's nearly the most on the team (4.2 of GTJ's FGA's come off Fred passes - though of course a lot of those are drive and kick, 2.4 of those 4.2 are threes, while Scottie doesn't have nearly the quick trigger GTJ does on the perimeter even with his improvements, so only about 1 of his Fred-pass FGA's are three pointers). OG and Pascal get 4.0 and 3.3 FGA's per game off Fred passes. To suggest Fred is feeding those guys more than Scottie is just not in line with reality.

Never mind the idea that other guys are feeding Scottie more, which is even more out of whack, as I noted, no one else's passes to Scottie lead to more than 1.4 FGA per game. Heck, the entire rest of the team added up has passed to Scottie leading to a FGA 145 times. Fred by himself has done so 94 times.

Sure,but the eye test will always tell you that Fred does actually look off scottie at times. Is it overstated to the extent it is complained about. I don't know if you want me to grab screenshots or not but it happens.

I do think that people looking only at FGA per game as a metric for whether or not Scottie is involved enough or not are missing out on a lot. I just think there are times that Fred misses the short roll pass opportunities. Not just to scottie but to others as well.


I agree with you though on a point that I THINK you are making. We don't need to FORCE FEED Scottie shots. Scottie needs to be much more aggressive and pick his spots better. He is doing it but I am of the mind that it is partially a mindset. He is more of a "we" guy than a "me" guy to a fault at times. So there are times that he is looking to get others involved when you look at him and say DUDE YOU HAVE THE MISMATCH GOOOO.


I can't say whether or not Fred feeds scottie more than others. I think we at least TRY to have an even spread of the offence. The people that I think "chuck" too much is Boucher, GTJ, and Precious.

I say precious because there are times when his court vision in transition is missing but he at least goes and takes it to the hole. He is getting better and I am not worried. GTJ, has improved as well but still sometimes takes around 3 shots that I would suggest are ill-advised. Boucher, is Boucher.

With Fred I sometimes think we take too long to get into sets.


Over the course of the entire season does this improve? Yes. Is it improving? Yes. Do I think a major trade is needed. No. I think we still need to improve our options by trading away boucher/dragic and get a 3rd big and potentially some level of bench scoring and we will be fine.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Dudes agreeing to your post without even understanding the facts LOL.


But hey man, as long as you bringing facts and statistical data to an argument, the horde will just nod without thinking lol.

I understand what you are saying but.... if the data is not being interpreted well then it isn't a fact. It is just data.

I know you were partially suggesting that but I want to make it crystal clear.

[TrueTorontoFan]

His pass to Birch is more effective with Khem shooting 67%, pass to Siakam generated 42.7 eFG%, pass to Svi generated 42.3% eFG while Scottie is only at 40.4 eFg%.

why I thought the eye test is Not showing his chemistry with Scottie.

Interesting point

[DanH]

Yes I agree and my bad to totally agree to Kagemusha and it is just silly to say that VanVleet is totally ignoring Scottie. So you are right on that !

But what I am asking…were those passes effective passes? were those passes resulting to a higher field goal percentage, spots where Scottie can easily score and HIM getting a credited assist?

His pass to Birch is more effective with Khem shooting 67%, pass to Siakam generated 42.7 eFG%, pass to Svi generated 42.3% eFG while Scottie is only at 40.4 eFg%.

why I thought the eye test is Not showing his chemistry with Scottie.

Wait, what?

2 point FG% on passes from FVV, in decreasing order of FGA (to filter out guys just hitting or missing threes):
Scottie: 46%
Pascal: 48%
Precious: 43%
OG: 47%
GTJ: 40%
Khem: 73%
Boucher: 36%

Hmm, it seems like maybe Khem is the outlier! Not Scottie, who has basically scored at the same rate as everyone else when set up by FVV, heck if anything more efficiently. Huh, maybe Fred is finding him in position to score? Nah, too simple. Weird how Scottie is the guy that Fred has set up inside the arc literally the most on the team.

Just because Khem is ridiculous as a roll man (on pretty low volume, I might add, which just means he only shoots when he's super open) doesn't mean he's a good comparable for what Scottie should be doing. Heck, do you... want Scottie to be relegated to 12% usage? I thought you were advocating for more shots for him - which will mean he can't pick and choose like Khem does, requiring FVV to spoon feed him layups. We want to see him create some offence, finish some plays in the midrange! Which... is exactly what we are getting? So... what exactly is the problem?

[A.I]

Sure,but the eye test will always tell you that Fred does actually look off scottie at times. Is it overstated to the extent it is complained about. I don't know if you want me to grab screenshots or not but it happens.

I do think that people looking only at FGA per game as a metric for whether or not Scottie is involved enough or not are missing out on a lot. I just think there are times that Fred misses the short roll pass opportunities. Not just to scottie but to others as well.


I agree with you though on a point that I THINK you are making. We don't need to FORCE FEED Scottie shots. Scottie needs to be much more aggressive and pick his spots better. He is doing it but I am of the mind that it is partially a mindset. He is more of a "we" guy than a "me" guy to a fault at times. So there are times that he is looking to get others involved when you look at him and say DUDE YOU HAVE THE MISMATCH GOOOO.


I can't say whether or not Fred feeds scottie more than others. I think we at least TRY to have an even spread of the offence. The people that I think "chuck" too much is Boucher, GTJ, and Precious.

I say precious because there are times when his court vision in transition is missing but he at least goes and takes it to the hole. He is getting better and I am not worried. GTJ, has improved as well but still sometimes takes around 3 shots that I would suggest are ill-advised. Boucher, is Boucher.

With Fred I sometimes think we take too long to get into sets.


Over the course of the entire season does this improve? Yes. Is it improving? Yes. Do I think a major trade is needed. No. I think we still need to improve our options by trading away boucher/dragic and get a 3rd big and potentially some level of bench scoring and we will be fine.

I think the Fred passing to Scottie thing is magnified because people want Scottie to be a star so they are focusing on him more than the other players and notice when Fred isn't finding him. In reality, Fred misses everyone on occasion as does everyone else on the team and in the league, unless you're an all time great playmaker like CP3 or Lebron and know how to manipulate the defense.

People need to realize Fred has never been a natural playmaker and he always had Kyle to fall back on, this year its all him, he is the lead guard and has those responsibilities now and is growing in that role. He has been great this season but of course there is room for improvement.

[DanH]

Sure,but the eye test will always tell you that Fred does actually look off scottie at times. Is it overstated to the extent it is complained about. I don't know if you want me to grab screenshots or not but it happens.

I do think that people looking only at FGA per game as a metric for whether or not Scottie is involved enough or not are missing out on a lot. I just think there are times that Fred misses the short roll pass opportunities. Not just to scottie but to others as well.

Huh. Well, I think that was my whole point, no? That it's not Fred looking off Scottie, but his still-developing game as a point guard? He's made massive improvements and I think we expect too much in general re: what players see versus what we have from a bird's eye view, but he definitely still has room for improvement finding the right pass in all scenarios.

Fred feeds Scottie at basically the same rate (or better) as everybody else. This discussion about Fred specifically ignoring Scottie can stop. Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled general criticism of his playmaking.

[golden]

I think the Fred passing to Scottie thing is magnified because people want Scottie to be a star so they are focusing on him more than the other players and notice when Fred isn't finding him. In reality, Fred misses everyone on occasion as does everyone else on the team and in the league, unless you're an all time great playmaker like CP3 or Lebron and know how to manipulate the defense.

People need to realize Fred has never been a natural playmaker and he always had Kyle to fall back on, this year its all him, he is the lead guard and has those responsibilities now and is growing in that role. He has been great this season but of course there is room for improvement.

Fred doesn’t get teammates easy buckets going towards the rim. That’s not a new revelation or a slight… that’s just how his playmaking has evolved. He’s been a “drive and kick to the open shooter on the perimeter” type of playmaker, which naturally won’t favor Scottie’s strengths. He’s not a pick & roll maestro… even prime DJ Augustin level, but I’ve seen glimpses of improving chemistry there with Precious and Khem. Still a ways to go, though.

[The Claw Reborn]

Wait, what?

2 point FG% on passes from FVV, in decreasing order of FGA (to filter out guys just hitting or missing threes):
Scottie: 46%
Pascal: 48%
Precious: 43%
OG: 47%
GTJ: 40%
Khem: 73%
Boucher: 36%

Hmm, it seems like maybe Khem is the outlier! Not Scottie, who has basically scored at the same rate as everyone else when set up by FVV, heck if anything more efficiently. Huh, maybe Fred is finding him in position to score? Nah, too simple. Weird how Scottie is the guy that Fred has set up inside the arc literally the most on the team.

Just because Khem is ridiculous as a roll man (on pretty low volume, I might add, which just means he only shoots when he's super open) doesn't mean he's a good comparable for what Scottie should be doing. Heck, do you... want Scottie to be relegated to 12% usage? I thought you were advocating for more shots for him - which will mean he can't pick and choose like Khem does, requiring FVV to spoon feed him layups. We want to see him create some offence, finish some plays in the midrange! Which... is exactly what we are getting? So... what exactly is the problem?

Nah….Birch is not the outlier, VanVleet just don’t know yet where to find the spots of Scottie where he can effectively score the ball.

As I stated, total FG% of Scottie from Van Vleet’s pass is only 40%….if he increased the volume of passing to him and less of him chucking, maybe that would improve the numbers of Scottie and increased his Field goal attempts = higher fg% …we wouldn’t know if they don’t try it.

Yet again, the question…is he really maximizing the strengths of the rookie or his role is more effective as the one getting the pass to catch and shoot. Time will tell.

[DanH]

Nah….Birch is not the outlier, VanVleet just don’t know yet where to find the spots of Scottie where he can effectively score the ball.

As I stated, total FG% of Scottie from Van Vleet’s pass is only 40%….if he increased the volume of passing to him and less of him chucking, maybe that would improve the numbers of Scottie and increased his Field goal attempts = higher fg% …we wouldn’t know if they don’t try it.

Yet again, the question…is he really maximizing the strengths of the rookie or his role is more effective as the one getting the pass to catch and shoot. Time will tell.

Yes, Scottie has missed a bunch of threes off Fred passes. But threes are high variance, if you try to learn something from 20 attempts or so, you will learn something that is likely not actually true.

As for whether playing with Fred is maximizing his strengths versus hurting his performance...

Scottie per 36 with Fred: 16.3 points, 56% TS%, 8.4 rebounds, 20% usage, +1.0, 642 minute sample
Scottie per 36 without Fred: 10.7 points, 47% TS%, 6.9 rebounds, 14% usage, -14.7, 142 minute sample

I mean, I prefer the first row. You?

And longer term, AGAIN, the strength of Barnes is supposed to be as a primary creator/playmaker in an ideal world. If you want to maximize that strength long term, you don't want a guard who is extremely effective on ball but not effective off ball, you want a guy who will be elite off the ball and can be decent on the ball when you need to give Barnes a breather. Which Fred more than qualifies for.

Edit: also, I must say, to be able to look at that list and say "Birch is not the outlier" is... quite something.

[WJF]

Scottie Barnes was not even a starter on his college team and now people are looking to have him as a number 1 option in his rookie year. WTAF? Hell, even when he played at Montverde he average under 12 ppg.

He has lots of freedom in the offense and is not used any less than he should be. Give the guy time to figure the NBA out. He is not a finished product, let him add new things each year , his growth can be exponential.

[The Claw Reborn]

Yes, Scottie has missed a bunch of threes off Fred passes. But threes are high variance, if you try to learn something from 20 attempts or so, you will learn something that is likely not actually true.

As for whether playing with Fred is maximizing his strengths versus hurting his performance...

Scottie per 36 with Fred: 16.3 points, 56% TS%, 8.4 rebounds, 20% usage, +1.0, 642 minute sample
Scottie per 36 without Fred: 10.7 points, 47% TS%, 6.9 rebounds, 14% usage, -14.7, 142 minute sample

I mean, I prefer the first row. You?

And longer term, AGAIN, the strength of Barnes is supposed to be as a primary creator/playmaker in an ideal world. If you want to maximize that strength long term, you don't want a guard who is extremely effective on ball but not effective off ball, you want a guy who will be elite off the ball and can be decent on the ball when you need to give Barnes a breather. Which Fred more than qualifies for.

Edit: also, I must say, to be able to look at that list and say "Birch is not the outlier" is... quite something.

You keep moving the goal post in your argument just to prove your point stating that VanVleet is this ideal partner to Scottie Barnes. So typical of your most often strawman point of view but whatever lol.

Maybe Scottie’s averaged field goal percentage is higher is because he is out there collecting the volume of misses of VanVleet, hence also his higher rebound percentage per 36.

Hey man, spin this discussion to whatever your liking, but the bottomline…I just want VanVleet to find the sweet spots of Scottie so he can effectively make shots., 3 field goal attempts to his total is just fine. If he is really a point guard. But if he evolves as a more of an off guard which I think the stats don’t lie, then the follow up question, is he the right person to aid In the development of Scottie and maximize his strengths.