Everything Scottie Barnes

[The Claw Reborn]

15-16 is entirely different from 20

but 12-13 is also different from 15-16

lol

[GOLDBLUM]

Yeah in fairness, NN was saying earlier in the year how he wants Scottie closer to the upper range when he'd just come off a 19 fga game vs being disappointed with him after a 7fga game. He's been all over the map with attempts since but has averaged 11.7 fga since...

I think we'd all be thrilled with him getting more good shots off, and it'd be great if we could find him in places for him to best succeed in doing that.

[The Claw Reborn]

I will take the onus that maybe I am unfair to say that only VanVleet is part of the reason and not focusing more on Nick Nurse’s system by not holding true to his promise early in the season of his want for Scottie to increased his volume. Maybe his system needs some tweaking to allow Scottie to find his sweet spots.

But cannot fully blame me when I see VanVleet hurling 21 field goal attempts or “there are games” that he has the highest volume of shots not only amongst his teammates but including the other players of the opposing team.

[TrueTorontoFan]

I think the Fred passing to Scottie thing is magnified because people want Scottie to be a star so they are focusing on him more than the other players and notice when Fred isn't finding him. In reality, Fred misses everyone on occasion as does everyone else on the team and in the league, unless you're an all time great playmaker like CP3 or Lebron and know how to manipulate the defense.

You are not wrong. I do think Scotties ability to see the floor is elite but I do not think it is his time YET. I am not ready to hand over the entire keys and trade everyone 20 games into his career. Even if he is there there is no reason to do it.



I like this team.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Huh. Well, I think that was my whole point, no? That it's not Fred looking off Scottie, but his still-developing game as a point guard? He's made massive improvements and I think we expect too much in general re: what players see versus what we have from a bird's eye view, but he definitely still has room for improvement finding the right pass in all scenarios.

Fred feeds Scottie at basically the same rate (or better) as everybody else. This discussion about Fred specifically ignoring Scottie can stop. Feel free to return to your regularly scheduled general criticism of his playmaking.

Me? I dont think I am really even that bad with my Fred criticism. I just think he misses guys on the short roll and occasionally misses Scottie. Or I guess you are more so directing the bolded at others.


I do mean this in a non-sarcastic manner. Thank you for clarifying. I don't like assuming what people mean.

[The Claw Reborn]

You are not wrong. I do think Scotties ability to see the floor is elite but I do not think it is his time YET. I am not ready to hand over the entire keys and trade everyone 20 games into his career. Even if he is there there is no reason to do it.



I like this team.

No one is trading anyone right now….but you just responded to a poster who insinuated that “maybe” Pascal can be traded down the road based on what? Few games and his poor play coming off a major shoulder surgery.

But hey, those things don’t get pointed out around here because the moment, anything negative is said about VanVleet, the wheels will spin.

It went from a good back and forth between DanH to the dumbdumb re-inserting himself to the discussion and saying some good faith bullshit.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Considering Scottie only has 1.4 FGA per game as putbacks (on 2.9 OREB) at 60% success, and only averages 0.7 more offensive rebounds per 36 with Fred on the court... probably not? And... is it bad to put him in position to get easy buckets off putbacks?

You're the one that wants Scottie to take more shots, well guess what? He averages over 13 FGA/36 with Fred on the court, it's the minutes Fred sits that are dragging down his attempts (10 FGA per 36).

We've been over this. The Raptors clearly envision an offence where at the VERY least, Scottie is an equal participant from a creation standpoint (and as noted, I suspect the hope is long term he develops into the dominant cog of the offence). So Fred being an off ball savant is good in that regard. Fred being capable on the ball is also good, so Fred can slide more and more off the ball as Scottie is ready for more responsibility, without rushing Scottie into that role immediately. What is so hard about this?

I'm not shifting goalposts, I'm addressing the concerns and questions YOU raise! You said Fred looked off Scottie, I said he passed to him a bunch. you said those passes were not generating offence for Scottie, I quoted his FGA numbers off those passes. You questioned why Birch had a higher FG% off Fred passes than Scottie and I showed that Birch is the outlier and basically everyone on the team has a FG% somewhere in the 40's off Fred passes. You questioned whether Fred was an ideal partner to develop Scottie and I pointed out that he was! Like, if you don't want your questions answered and are going to accuse me of creating strawmen and moving goal posts when I try to answer them, maybe, like, stop asking them? Since you don't seem to care what the answers are anyway...

Going back to my point. I, like you, think that positionless basketball also likely means a more egalitarian offence. Some people want to go towards heliocentricism. It can work but it doesn't work as often as people think. Even if its just 3 guys sharing it thats still better than 1 guy taking up 40 percent of the possessions. Scottie at his best doesn't have to look like Luka. I also think in terms of development the "slow approach is better. Given that it isn't even that slow. We are talking about them increasing his roll eye test wise throughout the first quarter or third of the season. AKA yeah I agree with you.

Hence why I said before that I think the Fred ignoring Scottie stuff is overblown. Some of the people are just obsessive over it. Again I think ultimately Fred as a point guard works now and he should be gaining those skills but at its peak this team (with another big man).

[TrueTorontoFan]

No one is trading anyone right now….but you just responded to a poster who insinuated that “maybe” Pascal can be traded down the road based on what? Few games and his poor play coming off a major shoulder surgery.

But hey, those things don’t get pointed out around here because the moment, anything negative is said about VanVleet, the wheels will spin.

It went from a good back and forth between DanH to the dumbdumb re-inserting himself to the discussion and saying some good faith bullshit.

Who are you referring to when you say the "dumb dumb"

[KeonClark]

Who are you referring to when you say the "dumb dumb"

Me, of course. I guess personal attacks are back on the menu, Claw? Well,

I'm your huckleberry.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Not to rain on anyone's parade but arguing about how many FGAs per game a guy is getting is losing the plot. If there are any issues with Barnes on the offensive they are more a result of the Raptors offense than touches, shots, etc. Personally, I'd like to see more Barnes in screen and roll as the roll man (he is really hard to handle when he's moving downhill) and give him a few looks as the ballhandler in screen and roll (and not the perfunctory ones where no one moves but with a guy rolling hard to the rim). A few more of those possessions and a few less of the constant isos and dribble hand offs might prove fruitful and I don't care if he get 0 more shots out of it but my guess is that the team would get some good possessions.

But there is zero need to force feed him shots for the sake of getting him more shots. That's not good basketball and it isn't going to have any positive benefits.

His ability to set solid screens has always been great in terms of recognizing the angles and when to screen. He has become much better at setting the actual screens as of late.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Me, of course. I guess personal attacks are back on the menu, Claw? Well,

I'm your huckleberry.

ok fair enough. I actually missed you commenting in the entire discussion so I was about ready to get locked and loaded but I always check first.

[The Claw Reborn]

Going back to my point. I, like you, think that positionless basketball also likely means a more egalitarian offence. Some people want to go towards heliocentricism. It can work but it doesn't work as often as people think. Even if its just 3 guys sharing it thats still better than 1 guy taking up 40 percent of the possessions. Scottie at his best doesn't have to look like Luka. I also think in terms of development the "slow approach is better. Given that it isn't even that slow. We are talking about them increasing his roll eye test wise throughout the first quarter or third of the season. AKA yeah I agree with you.

Hence why I said before that I think the Fred ignoring Scottie stuff is overblown. Some of the people are just obsessive over it. Again I think ultimately Fred as a point guard works now and he should be gaining those skills but at its peak this team (with another big man).

Equal opportunity for everyone though does not mean having someone shoot 21 field goal attempts….10 more field goal attempts than his career attempts. Having to receive the key with open arms does not mean, you should be chucking shots.

Hopefully he goes back to his career attempts or close to that with Siakam in total full speed. But again adding 3 more to Scottie’s 12 is not too much to ask

[GOLDBLUM]

Equal opportunity for everyone though does not mean having someone shoot 21 field goal attempts….10 more field goal attempts than his career attempts. Having to receive the key with open arms does not mean, you should be chucking shots.

Hopefully he goes back to his career attempts or close to that with Siakam is total full speed. But again adding 3 more to Scottie’s 12 is not too much to ask

In the last three games in which Fred has shot over 20fga he's averaging 52% from the field... pretty great, given the kind of shots he's taking. (He only had a single +20fga game before that which was the first game of the season and didn't go well, for anybody.)

All in all, Fred's shooting a career high fg% this year as well as career highs in EFG% and TS%. ... It's tough to incriminate Fred as a chucker when mostly he's been hoisting them up because we're woefully undermanned and he's trying to do his best to drag us to wins... He's been doing a pretty darn good job given the circumstances.

[The Claw Reborn]

In the last three games in which Fred has shot over 20fga he's averaging 52% from the field... pretty great, given the kind of shots he's taking. (He only had a single +20fga game before that which was the first game of the season and didn't go well, for anybody.)

All in all, Fred's shooting a career high fg% this year as well as career highs in EFG% and TS%. ... It's tough to incriminate Fred as a chucker when mostly he's been hoisting them up because we're woefully undermanned and he's trying to do his best to drag us to wins... He's been doing a pretty darn good job given the circumstances.

So hopefully those games the he attempted at a high volume because there were so many:

2 games - 22 attempts
1 games - 21 attempts
3 games - 18 attempts
3 games - 17 attempts

….were correlated to what you said that the team was undermanned.

During the course of this discussion, I mentioned about having a full season to evaluate how he is with Scottie and I am fine with that.

On the flip side. My only point that I am trying to pound my head to the wall is Scottie also increasing his volume from 12 to 16.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Equal opportunity for everyone though does not mean having someone shoot 21 field goal attempts….10 more field goal attempts than his career attempts. Having to receive the key with open arms does not mean, you should be chucking shots.

Hopefully he goes back to his career attempts or close to that with Siakam in total full speed. But again adding 3 more to Scottie’s 12 is not too much to ask

I never said we have equal opportunity currently though. Usage wise its close. I land some where in between you and Dan.

Focusing only on shot attempts isnt going to be sufficient in one way or another. Do I think sometimes FVV takes too long to get us into an action or to help create "advantage events" yes.

Do I think sometimes he shoots the ball one too many times. Obviously we can play semantics about me saying one to many times. But yes. I also agree that around 13 shots a game is probably perfect for scottie on average. GTJ I think see's to much of a green light. Overall Fred's game management of knowing when to press and when to get other guys involved is developing. I don't think it will ever get to a Lowry level but I already said earlier that its wrong for both him and Lowry to compare the two.


I dont know if I gave my chucker list here but if I didn't. GTJ, and Boucher. GTJ is being forgiven right now because of his improvements in defence but he chucks still. He chucks less but still chucks. He should not be taking more than 12-13 shots a game yet it is not uncommon to see him shooting 16shots or more.

His percentage has improved but he was shooting 37 percent to start the season in In october. He improved that to 45% over all which was better but the shots came more within the flow of the offence in general. Has he gotten better ? yes but THAT is a shot chucker. Two games thus far this month he has shot 20% again.

I don't think you are trying to make it a Fred VS Scottie thing. I think you are just trying to outline what you have seen. I have seen a bit of what you have seen enough to make a note but not enough to be of major concern. Why?


Scottie has never taken more than 13 field goals in his life except for once before this year. I also think he is very much focused on getting others involved. I don't know if you heard Mike Schmidt's interview about Barnes but he outlined that they played a game called 25 where the players would visualize scoring 25 points in different ways and then would have to go out and do it. Scottie struggled with it because he would ask... do assists count? I truly feel that there are times he may not know that he is the one who has the mismatched player on him and is so focused on getting other guys that he isnt' more aggressive. I've seen it improve but overall that is his mentality. He needs to grow out of that.

My assumption is that is a BIG reason not the only reason but a big reason why Barnes sometimes has less shot attempts than he should.

Do I think fred can shoot the ball less than he does at times? Yes. These things are mutually exclusive.