Everything Scottie Barnes

[golden]

The ratings or the 2019 finals looked bad at first, but then we see they were more than DOUBLE the 2020 finals and lebron, and 2021 finals as well. Obviously covid, no fans, etc...but they were still double. So, the whole "ratings hate Canada" thing was basically shown to be false.

I think more than likely the league will never reach its 2016-18 peak again, as there is so many more legal and illegal avenues to connect with the game broadcast now.

2020 Finals had to go up against the NFL, and the NBA realized they wanted no part of that going forward. That's an asterisk in every way possible, from ratings down to I don't accept the Lakers as legitimate champions. We still the champs.

2021 Finals had a new cast of characters. No Steph, KD or Lebron. It's kind of like the first episodes of a new Star Trek series. Kind of wait & see. I would bet the Bucks and Suns are 2 of the least popular franchises, outside of their own market. Also, the timing of the Finals was deep into the summer, so again.... asterisk from a ratings POV.

Guarantee you if the Warriors & Nets make the Finals with all the stars healthy, it will easily eclipse 2019 Raps-Warriors. Even then, Raps got a boost from Warriors popularity, if only for people tuning in to see them lose... and maybe a few others interested in Kawhi's epic run.

[slaw]

The ratings or the 2019 finals looked bad at first, but then we see they were more than DOUBLE the 2020 finals and lebron, and 2021 finals as well. Obviously covid, no fans, etc...but they were still double. So, the whole "ratings hate Canada" thing was basically shown to be false.

I think more than likely the league will never reach its 2016-18 peak again, as there is so many more legal and illegal avenues to connect with the game broadcast now.

NBA Finals average ratings have been on a downward trajectory post-Jordan. Basically, GSW-James bumped it back to the high of post-Jordan, which still looks like it fell off a cliff. The Raptors year was a return to the norm post-Jordan. The catastrophic drop-off the last two seasons has a lot of causes but it's only a continuation of a 20-year downward trend. This season will be a big test for the league, starting on Christmas day where it will now have NFL competition. Having to move the TNT show off Thursdays was already a big embarrassment for the league and Turner, so the signs aren't promising.

Every sports property is big business right now (even look at the WWE and AEW deals), so maybe even the streamers offer big bucks for games. Ultimately, a ESPN and Turner are likely going to give the NBA big deals as it's differentiated live programming they can sell ads for (and it still beats a lot of the cable competition) but fewer people are watching for reasons and you can't ignore that forever.

[TrueTorontoFan]

NBA Finals average ratings have been on a downward trajectory post-Jordan. Basically, GSW-James bumped it back to the high of post-Jordan, which still looks like it fell off a cliff. The Raptors year was a return to the norm post-Jordan. The catastrophic drop-off the last two seasons has a lot of causes but it's only a continuation of a 20-year downward trend. This season will be a big test for the league, starting on Christmas day where it will now have NFL competition. Having to move the TNT show off Thursdays was already a big embarrassment for the league and Turner, so the signs aren't promising.

Every sports property is big business right now (even look at the WWE and AEW deals), so maybe even the streamers offer big bucks for games. Ultimately, a ESPN and Turner are likely going to give the NBA big deals as it's differentiated live programming they can sell ads for (and it still beats a lot of the cable competition) but fewer people are watching for reasons and you can't ignore that forever.

why do you think that is?

[golden]

NBA Finals average ratings have been on a downward trajectory post-Jordan. Basically, GSW-James bumped it back to the high of post-Jordan, which still looks like it fell off a cliff. The Raptors year was a return to the norm post-Jordan. The catastrophic drop-off the last two seasons has a lot of causes but it's only a continuation of a 20-year downward trend. This season will be a big test for the league, starting on Christmas day where it will now have NFL competition. Having to move the TNT show off Thursdays was already a big embarrassment for the league and Turner, so the signs aren't promising.

Every sports property is big business right now (even look at the WWE and AEW deals), so maybe even the streamers offer big bucks for games. Ultimately, a ESPN and Turner are likely going to give the NBA big deals as it's differentiated live programming they can sell ads for (and it still beats a lot of the cable competition) but fewer people are watching for reasons and you can't ignore that forever.

SuperBowl TV ratings have also been steeply trending down. You have to think this is the effect of streaming. I mean, I've heard of "some people" who haven't paid to watch live sports on TV in like 5 years, and yet have access to every team, every sport at their fingertips.

[slaw]

I don't think that it has much at all do with streaming based on what we know about the streaming numbers. The decline for the Superbowl looks to be about the key demo and is likely about casual fans and non-football fans not tuning in and choosing other options. Notably, the key demo hasn't abandoned SNF, for example, so it isn't a consistent issue but likely more a Superbowl problem (not as interesting to casuals/non-fans, too long, etc.).

Otherwise, the NFL is a ratings juggernaut relative to everything else on TV. You can't say that about the NBA, thouhg, it can still do well at times.

[golden]

I don't think that it has much at all do with streaming based on what we know about the streaming numbers. The decline for the Superbowl looks to be about the key demo and is likely about casual fans and non-football fans not tuning in and choosing other options. Notably, the key demo hasn't abandoned SNF, for example, so it isn't a consistent issue but likely more a Superbowl problem (not as interesting to casuals/non-fans, too long, etc.).

Otherwise, the NFL is a ratings juggernaut relative to everything else on TV. You can't say that about the NBA, thouhg, it can still do well at times.

Supply and demand. You can miss a few NBA games here and there, but die-hards will plan their schedule around the NFL because of the scarcity. NFL is truly more of a special event on per game basis. That said, NFL ratings have been relatively flat for the last decade and ratings were even declining at one point.

Another thing is that the NBA dominates non game-day media flow like no other sport. I'm convinced that a lot of so-called fans don't even watch NBA games anymore... just highlights, box-scores and follow the TMZ off-court stuff and NBA Twitter (which I have very little idea what goes on there, thankfully). The NBA is a 24/7/365 content machine, at a time when content is king.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Supply and demand. You can miss a few NBA games here and there, but die-hards will plan their schedule around the NFL because of the scarcity. NFL is truly more of a special event on per game basis. That said, NFL ratings have been relatively flat for the last decade and ratings were even declining at one point.

Another thing is that the NBA dominates non game-day media flow like no other sport. I'm convinced that a lot of so-called fans don't even watch NBA games anymore... just highlights, box-scores and follow the TMZ off-court stuff and NBA Twitter (which I have very little idea what goes on there, thankfully). The NBA is a 24/7/365 content machine, at a time when content is king.

One thing that was big was our chip was a spike back up I think because of Canadian and international viewership.

[Primer]

ESPN, TNT & Nike, etc… are the hands that feed the NBA.

Do they not sell Nike shoes in Canada?

This whole NBA hates Toronto thing is overblown and really stupid. The NBA is OBSESSED with International expansion. Toronto is the biggest piece of that.

The NFL has openly stated many times if Toronto had an NFL quality stadium they would have an NFL team, number one of the list for expansion if we just had a stadium. Why would the NFL wanna do that if Toronto was this awful place to have relevant in your league? Why does the NFL hold games in London every year and keep increasing the amount of games there? Because it's GOOD for their bottom line.

ESPN owns TSN, so they are plenty happy with TSN doing well. The easiest way to expand your business is to increase the market size. That isn't happening by adding more USA teams, everyone in USA already watches.

The whole Canada inferiority complex is stupid. Toronto is one of the biggest and most affluent markets in the world and every sports league wants a team there. A huge plus is Toronto is in the largest USA time zone, Eastern, and really freaking close to many major USA cities.

[MixxAOR]

Guys what are we even talking about? 300 million people in USA vs 30 million for Canada. And majority of Canadians don't follow basketball. Why do you think NBA was bending over backwards for China? China doesn't even have a team. Plus ESPN and TNT doesn't have broadcasting rights in Canada so there is no incentive to talk about Raptors.

It's not overblown. Its reality.

[Primer]

Guys what are we even talking about? 300 million people in USA vs 30 million for Canada. And majority of Canadians don't follow basketball. Why do you think NBA was bending over backwards for China? China doesn't even have a team. Plus ESPN and TNT doesn't have broadcasting rights in Canada so there is no incentive to talk about Raptors.

It's not overblown. Its reality.

ESPN owns TSN. They own networks in every country. ESPN is also hyper focused on international expansion.

The USA is not a hegemony. People only root for teams where they're from. So yes 10x Canadas population but over 30X the teams Canada has.

ESPN and Nike and Gatorade and everyone else want to be in the Canadian market, it's massively important to them, especially Toronto. If Canada were a state it would be the largest state and really freaking dumb to not have a team there. If anything Canada needs more teams. New York and LA both have less population than Canada yet 2 teams each.

[golden]

ESPN owns TSN. They own networks in every country. ESPN is also hyper focused on international expansion.

The USA is not a hegemony. People only root for teams where they're from. So yes 10x Canadas population but over 30X the teams Canada has.

ESPN and Nike and Gatorade and everyone else want to be in the Canadian market, it's massively important to them, especially Toronto. If Canada were a state it would be the largest state and really freaking dumb to not have a team there. If anything Canada needs more teams. New York and LA both have less population than Canada yet 2 teams each.

Sure, that’s why NBA players get endorsement incentives from Nike etc… if they play in marquee markets like New York and LA, because they are intoxicated by the huge market opportunity that Canada represents. Lol.

Not saying they don’t want to take our money if it’s an easy cash grab (which it is), but let’s get real here. International expansion means Europe and China mostly, and if the NBA could find a way to monetize India, they would be falling all over themselves to exploit that next.

[MixxAOR]

ESPN owns TSN. They own networks in every country. ESPN is also hyper focused on international expansion.

The USA is not a hegemony. People only root for teams where they're from. So yes 10x Canadas population but over 30X the teams Canada has.

ESPN and Nike and Gatorade and everyone else want to be in the Canadian market, it's massively important to them, especially Toronto. If Canada were a state it would be the largest state and really freaking dumb to not have a team there. If anything Canada needs more teams. New York and LA both have less population than Canada yet 2 teams each.

like 30%. Mostly owned by Bell

[Primer]

like 30%. Mostly owned by Bell

So they don't care about their 30% share in a multi billion dollar channel? They bought that stake for shits and giggles? If they could own 100% they would but Bell won't sell the rest.

[Primer]

Sure, that’s why NBA players get endorsement incentives from Nike etc… if they play in marquee markets like New York and LA, because they are intoxicated by the huge market opportunity that Canada represents. Lol.

Not saying they don’t want to take our money if it’s an easy cash grab (which it is), but let’s get real here. International expansion means Europe and China mostly, and if the NBA could find a way to monetize India, they would be falling all over themselves to exploit that next.

The NBA is focused on Europe and China too but those markets are in vastly different time zones and impossible to broadcast in the USA at a time that is reasonable for locals in those markets. Hence why Canada has had a team for over 25 years and those markets still have 0 with none on the horizon. Vancouver will get another team before Europe or China.

Toronto isn't on NY or LA level but it's a shit ton more valuable than 90% of NBA markets. This whole argument started with someone suggesting Cleveland was a more important market to the NBA than Toronto which is just beyond laughable. Nike and Gatorade want Toronto a million times more than they want Cleveland.

[golden]

The NBA is focused on Europe and China too but those markets are in vastly different time zones and impossible to broadcast in the USA at a time that is reasonable for locals in those markets. Hence why Canada has had a team for over 25 years and those markets still have 0 with none on the horizon. Vancouver will get another team before Europe or China.

Toronto isn't on NY or LA level but it's a shit ton more valuable than 90% of NBA markets. This whole argument started with someone suggesting Cleveland was a more important market to the NBA than Toronto which is just beyond laughable. Nike and Gatorade want Toronto a million times more than they want Cleveland.

That was me. The point wasn't Cleveland > Toronto, since Cavs and Raptors both foils for the big markets. The point is that ESPN would prefer ANY American market over Toronto and whether or not that factors into the hype of Mobley over Barnes. It definitely factors into the ratings that advertisers make decisions on and I'm not an expert on how the non-US pie gets allocated, so I'll defer to you on that.

My guess is that the Raptors getting back to the NBA finals would give the networks a heart attack. The network's dream scenario is: Steph vs. Lebron in the WCF and KD vs. the Bulls (or maybe Giannis) in the ECF.

International viewership and the NBA's globalization strategy is a different topic altogether. Canada is a tiny fish compared to what the league has it sights set on worldwide. 30M population (of mostly hockey and curling fanatics) is miniscule. Heck, even beyond Europe & China, the league is planting seeds and investing in Africa to capitalize on expected market growth down the road.