Everything Scottie Barnes

[TrueTorontoFan]

Adebayo is not really a bruiser C. He's got a good inside game but he's not out there beating people up physically in the post. Same height as Siakam and barnes too. Lopez and Vucevic spend a lot of time in the perimeter shooting 3's. I'll give you Adams, there's another 4 games for ~10 out of 82.

OG-Scottie-Siakam are our 3 best frontcourt players. If that's the go-to lineup to close it when games are on the line, that's what you should start too, your 5 best players. I get the argument of physical preservation there for Siakam, but him starting at C doesn't mean he's going to be fighting Steven Adams the whole game night in night out.

The whole idea of playing him with barnes and OG is that not only these 3 can switch seamlessly when the opposing offence screens, but you can also proactively rotate OG and barnes (and birch too off the bench), into the opposing C as needed. If 33 yr old Lopez goes 2010 on us and start brusing people down low, then yeah save Siakam's body and put birch out there, but that type of situation is getting less and less common every year. Like Jack Armstrong points out, the game now is almost more physical in the perimeter with the navigation of screens and off-ball movement, then it is down low.

Teams should start their 5 best players because that's your best shot at taking control of the game early and establish a lead, rather then being on chase mode the whole game and waiting for the 4th quarter crunch time to bring your best lineup in.

another reason to only play it as closing is to decrease amount of game tape on it for anti scouting purposes... get enough for your own data but not enough to have it be schemed against. It really does change the court geometry.


I don't want ben simmons for the personal reasons but if we got another legit starting level guy who was potentially an all star/all nba guy to add to the mix and you only lost lets say GTJ and Dragic and some picks.. you could really make the experiment happen.

[Primer]

Sample size is too small. Per 36 can notoriously skew things. Birch is alright but he's nothing special when it comes to rebounding or shot blocking. Difference is if he gets switched onto a guard he's not going to contain it as well as Scottie, OG or Pascal. It's a small C we picked off waivers that will play ahead of our 4th overall pick, despite both being the same height and weight.

The sample size is fine because you can take any season of his career and he's always been a superior rebounder and shot blocker to Siakam and OG, and Barnes was neither a good rebounder nor shot blocker in college. Birch's stats scaled perfectly with his increase in minutes in Toronto. He's not anything special but that's not what you said, you said he wasn't better than OG and Siakam when he so clearly objectively is.

I'm fine with experimenting with Barnes at C but I don't think that's how Masai or Nurse envision him on this team. So yes, I do expect Birch to start over Barnes at C, because we don't plan on playing Barnes at C. Barnes will be bringing the ball up the court, not running ahead to get post position.

Birch will be there on offense to set hard picks and clean up the offensive glass. Another area he is FAR superior at than OG and Siakam. Birch is an elite offensive rebounder.

I think you're just really undervaluing Birch's game and need to look into it a bit more. He's not some scrub he's actually pretty damn good.

[JawsGT]

At some point, you gotta be thinking that Precious will be the starting C, if not right out the gate. I'm expecting Birch mind you, but I think Precious has the tools the team values to fill that position in the future. He's quick with decent size, and from what I've seen, surprisingly good handles. He would fit perfectly with the positionless theme, if that is indeed the direction the team is going.

If that turns out to be true, then the only way I see Scottie cracking the starting rotation is to supplant GTJr or FVV, unless Pascal or OG get traded, which I dont see happening this season at least. And then we still have Boucher, for the time being at least, to fill either forward spot.

If Birch starts and Scottie does not, a bench unit of Flynn, Dragic, Barnes, Boucher and Precious looks formidable. That lineup will win us some games this season, and a reason I think we are a lock for the playoffs.

Something to be excited about too, is that 1 through 10, every one of these guys is an attractive piece in a trade that could net us a big upgrade. Something like GTjr and Boucher plus picks might look real nice to a team dealing a star level talent. Feels like the team is in a really good place given what we've lost since the Championship, Lowry, Kawhi, Green, Ibaka, Gasol and Powell.

[inthepaint]

The sample size is fine because you can take any season of his career and he's always been a superior rebounder and shot blocker to Siakam and OG, and Barnes was neither a good rebounder nor shot blocker in college. Birch's stats scaled perfectly with his increase in minutes in Toronto. He's not anything special but that's not what you said, you said he wasn't better than OG and Siakam when he so clearly objectively is.

I'm fine with experimenting with Barnes at C but I don't think that's how Masai or Nurse envision him on this team. So yes, I do expect Birch to start over Barnes at C, because we don't plan on playing Barnes at C. Barnes will be bringing the ball up the court, not running ahead to get post position.

Birch will be there on offense to set hard picks and clean up the offensive glass. Another area he is FAR superior at than OG and Siakam. Birch is an elite offensive rebounder.

I think you're just really undervaluing Birch's game and need to look into it a bit more. He's not some scrub he's actually pretty damn good.

Meh. Birch is a serviceable backup big in the nba. I like him on our roster and I mean no disrespect, but "elite rebounders", superior rim protectors and "pretty damn good players" don't get waived at age 28. Again, certainly has a role on our team, but ultimately it comes down to 2 questions:

1) Is Birch a better overall player than Barnes?

--If the answer is 'yes', you start him. That would mean we really screwed up on our 4th overall pick, but at least you're putting your best lineup out right away to take control of the game early.
--if the answer is 'no', then the follow up question is:

2} Should a team start their best 5 players?

--If the answer is 'yes', you start barnes. It doesn't mean Barnes would play C the most, just means you have 4 frontcourt players with about the same height and weight (OG, Siakam, Barnes and Birch), you start the 3 best ones overall, set the tone early, and on the small minority of games in 2022 where you believe will be bully-ball inside, you feature Birch more to save up the other guys physically.
--If the answer is 'no', it means the team decided to intentionally start a lineup they deem worse, with a higher risk of falling behind early (because you're concerned with your best players being banged up, or some other dubious reasons like "you don't play your best 5 too much so they don't get scouted against', or ego/pecking order etc..)

[TrueTorontoFan]

Look we have to ask ourselves if we go the positionless route are there still defined roles on a team. Lead ball handler.. primary playmaker. If that is the case Scottie doesn't fit the role of the modern center. It would be wasting his skills. He has skills as a primary distributor/playmaker. I would even be in favor of starting him above trent. Right now starting him at center doesn't make sense unless you want him to immediately bulk up and I think he is already a big kid.

Meh. Birch is a serviceable backup big in the nba. I like him on our roster and I mean no disrespect, but "elite rebounders", superior rim protectors and "pretty damn good players" don't get waived at age 28. Again, certainly has a role on our team, but ultimately it comes down to 2 questions:

1) Is Birch a better overall player than Barnes?

--If the answer is 'yes', you start him. That would mean we really screwed up on our 4th overall pick, but at least you're putting your best lineup out right away to take control of the game early.
--if the answer is 'no', then the follow up question is:

2} Should a team start their best 5 players?

--If the answer is 'yes', you start barnes. It doesn't mean Barnes would play C the most, just means you have 4 frontcourt players with about the same height and weight (OG, Siakam, Barnes and Birch), you start the 3 best ones overall, set the tone early, and on the small minority of games in 2022 where you believe will be bully-ball inside, you feature Birch more to save up the other guys physically.
--If the answer is 'no', it means the team decided to intentionally start a lineup they deem worse, with a higher risk of falling behind early (because you're concerned with your best players being banged up, or some other dubious reasons like "you don't play your best 5 too much so they don't get scouted against', or ego/pecking order etc..)

So in response to inthepaint I think I am in favor of 2 by the playoffs. For the sake of development you want scottie to have reps but you can't just throw him to the wolves and we don't need to that is the benefit of our situation. We have a good enough team that we don't HAVE to play scottie 40 minutes to maximize his development. He can be very effective in smaller roles focusing on small differences for this year. If his growth is really that that good then you give him more and more.


It goes beyond what you are outlining. It isn't just about not banging up Siakam. I think forget about egos. The kid is a rookie and hasn't played an nba minute. If he is good enough then he is good enough great. I believe he is but I don't believe he is ready just yet. Again I would by years end start him at guard if at all possible. bring him out early and then put him back with the second unit.


At the end of the day I personally don't think starting matters as much as being able to match and play that game of chess with your opponent. That is why this team is amazing. Not because we can start a rookie. But because we have a lot of directions we can go game to game to make adjustments.

It could be as simple as having Dragic fill in for more shooting/playmaking. Or malachi. We can go super small. We can stay relatively big. We are built in a way to always have an A-level defender or two out there at all times on the wing and within the post setting.



The main issue with the Barnes etc etc line up is you may run into the offensive issues early on that I don't think will be there when siakam is back and scottie has more reps.

[TrueTorontoFan]

At some point, you gotta be thinking that Precious will be the starting C, if not right out the gate. I'm expecting Birch mind you, but I think Precious has the tools the team values to fill that position in the future. He's quick with decent size, and from what I've seen, surprisingly good handles. He would fit perfectly with the positionless theme, if that is indeed the direction the team is going.

If that turns out to be true, then the only way I see Scottie cracking the starting rotation is to supplant GTJr or FVV, unless Pascal or OG get traded, which I dont see happening this season at least. And then we still have Boucher, for the time being at least, to fill either forward spot.

If Birch starts and Scottie does not, a bench unit of Flynn, Dragic, Barnes, Boucher and Precious looks formidable. That lineup will win us some games this season, and a reason I think we are a lock for the playoffs.

Something to be excited about too, is that 1 through 10, every one of these guys is an attractive piece in a trade that could net us a big upgrade. Something like GTjr and Boucher plus picks might look real nice to a team dealing a star level talent. Feels like the team is in a really good place given what we've lost since the Championship, Lowry, Kawhi, Green, Ibaka, Gasol and Powell.

I like the notion of having a much better bench unit. You don't your top top guys down to the bone from the beginning of the season. That is what leads to injury and other issues. That has been our calling guard in years where we made deep runs. We had a deep team. Again Dragic, Barnes, Bouch, Precious, and Flynn is a line up that is good enough that we don't have to necessarily scramble to find spot minutes for guys like stanley johnson in a hopeful attempt to spark something.


More minutes will open up when boucher is eventually moved (at least I think)

[Primer]

Meh. Birch is a serviceable backup big in the nba. I like him on our roster and I mean no disrespect, but "elite rebounders", superior rim protectors and "pretty damn good players" don't get waived at age 28. Again, certainly has a role on our team, but ultimately it comes down to 2 questions:

1) Is Birch a better overall player than Barnes?

--If the answer is 'yes', you start him. That would mean we really screwed up on our 4th overall pick, but at least you're putting your best lineup out right away to take control of the game early.
--if the answer is 'no', then the follow up question is:

2} Should a team start their best 5 players?

--If the answer is 'yes', you start barnes. It doesn't mean Barnes would play C the most, just means you have 4 frontcourt players with about the same height and weight (OG, Siakam, Barnes and Birch), you start the 3 best ones overall, set the tone early, and on the small minority of games in 2022 where you believe will be bully-ball inside, you feature Birch more to save up the other guys physically.
--If the answer is 'no', it means the team decided to intentionally start a lineup they deem worse, with a higher risk of falling behind early (because you're concerned with your best players being banged up, or some other dubious reasons like "you don't play your best 5 too much so they don't get scouted against', or ego/pecking order etc..)

Barnes needs a lot of development still. I don't think that's debatable. It will be a lot easier to develop him off the bench against lesser talent where we can give him more responsibility and deal with more mistakes.

The starting lineup needs someone willing to focus on rebounding and defense at the center position. Put 100% effort into those two roles. That is Birch. On defense he's going to make life difficult for the opposing center and protect the rim with 100% effort, and on offense he's going to clean up offensive boards and get us 2nd chance opportunities (at an elite level he's an amazing offensive rebounder). Considering a lot of our guys are iffy shooters I like having an elite offensive rebounder out there to grab those misses and give us another chance at scoring.

Barnes is not a C. Throwing him out at starting C is not setting him up for success or a good development track. The starting lineup would also afford him little opportunity to run the offense or work on his own offense. It doesn't make sense to start Barnes at C over Birch. He's not a better rebounder or shot blocker which is what we need at C.

There is a great chance Barnes starts at SF/PF while Siakam is out and that's what his eventual role will be. You slide OG to SG when Siakam comes back if Barnes fits the starting unit better than Trent does. We're always gonna need a rebounder and shot blocker at C and we have 2 in Birch and Precious and I suspect those 2 will get the lions share of C minutes all season.

Don't be surprised when Barnes gets zero minutes at C because he's not a C and that's not what we're developing him as.

[TrueTorontoFan]

Barnes needs a lot of development still. I don't think that's debatable. It will be a lot easier to develop him off the bench against lesser talent where we can give him more responsibility and deal with more mistakes.

The starting lineup needs someone willing to focus on rebounding and defense at the center position. Put 100% effort into those two roles. That is Birch. On defense he's going to make life difficult for the opposing center and protect the rim with 100% effort, and on offense he's going to clean up offensive boards and get us 2nd chance opportunities (at an elite level he's an amazing offensive rebounder). Considering a lot of our guys are iffy shooters I like having an elite offensive rebounder out there to grab those misses and give us another chance at scoring.

Barnes is not a C. Throwing him out at starting C is not setting him up for success or a good development track. The starting lineup would also afford him little opportunity to run the offense or work on his own offense. It doesn't make sense to start Barnes at C over Birch. He's not a better rebounder or shot blocker which is what we need at C.

There is a great chance Barnes starts at SF/PF while Siakam is out and that's what his eventual role will be. You slide OG to SG when Siakam comes back if Barnes fits the starting unit better than Trent does. We're always gonna need a rebounder and shot blocker at C and we have 2 in Birch and Precious and I suspect those 2 will get the lions share of C minutes all season.

Don't be surprised when Barnes gets zero minutes at C because he's not a C and that's not what we're developing him as.

That is my exact thoughts. Those guys are really able to play 2-4 in terms of "positions" I a closing line up where you run guys out for 5-8 minutes I think you could shift towards a true small ball.. or if we had ben simmons without giving up OG/Siakam.

I also think Barnes could play PG or they will try it here and there. But he isn't ready for that role right now.


Right now everything Primer has said is true. He tends to hedge to high letting people drive on him a bit too easily at this level making him a bad shot blocker because he will be foul prone at first. He also isn't a great rebounder (if college is anything to look at). He boxes out well but I don't think he rebounds well yet. We will see if that changes. Even in the "small ball line up I suspect on defence it would likely be OG on the centers. On offense it would likely be Siakam as a center.

I will harp on the same point Primer pointed out, which I also pointed out before.

The advantage of this team is you can put Barnes out in high minute situations that are less risky becuase you can play him off the bench against worse talent and still have him get a heavy amount of minutes if you play him at the 3/4.

Really if you look at it Boucher will get most of his minutes at the 4, but also get minutes at the 5, also lastly he isn't a SF (3). We don't know if precious is a 5 or a 4 yet but he will get minutes as both especially early on in the season. Yuta, is a 4/3.

But this is going off topic. The point is you can play barnes for 20-25 minutes a game safetly (good amount of minutes for a rookie), and still have him come off the bench.

[golden]

If you look at likely USG scenarios... whoever is our center will be a low-usage guy (10-15% range) by default. Pascal (~27%) and Fred (~23%) will be our highest usage guys and OG and GTJ will be looking to increase their usage to median levels (e.g. ~20%).That's typically a low-skilled center who gets garbage buckets and the occasional some finish as roller. That role fits Birch to a T.

Boucher (20% USG) is much better off the bench, where he can change/keep momentum and shoot 3's with abandon. He's more passive in the starting lineup, which defeats the purpose of his natural tendency to bring energy and be fearless on both ends.

Scottie could be kind of a waste in the starting lineup because he'll be stuck in the corner (as a non-shooter), standing around watching the 4 other higher USG guys. That won't do anything to develop his talent as a ball-handler. We saw that in Summer League.

To inthepaint's point. Your 5 best players don't always start, e.g., Manu.

[LJ2]

If you look at likely USG scenarios... whoever is our center will be a low-usage guy (10-15% range) by default. Pascal (~27%) and Fred (~23%) will be our highest usage guys and OG and GTJ will be looking to increase their usage to median levels (e.g. ~20%).That's typically a low-skilled center who gets garbage buckets and the occasional some finish as roller. That role fits Birch to a T.

Boucher (20% USG) is much better off the bench, where he can change/keep momentum and shoot 3's with abandon. He's more passive in the starting lineup, which defeats the purpose of his natural tendency to bring energy and be fearless on both ends.

Scottie could be kind of a waste in the starting lineup because he'll be stuck in the corner (as a non-shooter), standing around watching the 4 other higher USG guys. That won't do anything to develop his talent as a ball-handler. We saw that in Summer League.

To inthepaint's point. Your 5 best players don't always start, e.g., Manu.

In time you would hope that it would be FVV that is off ball and Scottie would be the one initiating the plays. Not saying Scottie should be the primary ball handler through the full game, but in certain plays and scenarios.

I keep saying it, and I still think one of either OG or Siakam will have to be moved to make room for Scottie in the starting line up, eventually. My guess would be OG since Scottie projects as a guy who can duplicate a lot of OG's skills.

[The Great One]

Barnes is not a C. Throwing him out at starting C is not setting him up for success or a good development track. The starting lineup would also afford him little opportunity to run the offense or work on his own offense. It doesn't make sense to start Barnes at C over Birch. He's not a better rebounder or shot blocker which is what we need at C.

Don't be surprised when Barnes gets zero minutes at C because he's not a C and that's not what we're developing him as.

^ This. This. This.

I think it's crazy that we're even talking about Barnes playin C. He's a point forward. He played SF in high school and PG in college. Just because he's a big tall guy doesn't mean you can just put him at C.

[Primer]

In time you would hope that it would be FVV that is off ball and Scottie would be the one initiating the plays. Not saying Scottie should be the primary ball handler through the full game, but in certain plays and scenarios.

I keep saying it, and I still think one of either OG or Siakam will have to be moved to make room for Scottie in the starting line up, eventually. My guess would be OG since Scottie projects as a guy who can duplicate a lot of OG's skills.

What's "eventually" mean to you? If it's this season then I don't think it's gonna happen. We won't need to be making room for Scottie in the starting lineup this year while he's still very raw and doesn't have a shot yet.

Maybe in the offseason but I think you just slide OG to SG and let Barnes play SF and you keep all 3. Trent becomes the 6th man spark plug off the bench. OG > Trent so don't see any reason to ever deal OG, you make room by bumping Trent.

[S.R.]

We're likely getting the first month of the season without Siakam, a bunch of this rotation discussion is about 'eventually' when guys like Precious and Barnes settle in or prove themselves. How about right off the hop? Who's the starting 5 and who's your first off the bench?

I really have no idea if they throw Barnes in there right away or how heavily they use Dragic. I wouldn't be surprised with any of:

FVV/GTJ/OG/Barnes/Birch with Dragic as 1st guard and Boucher as 1st big off the bench

or

FVV/GTJ/OG/Boucher/Birch with Barnes as 1st off the bench for a perimeter or forward spots and Dragic next off the bench

or even

FVV/Dragic/GTJ/OG/Birch with Barnes or Boucher as 1st off the bench I really don't know anymore

[planetmars]

We're likely getting the first month of the season without Siakam, a bunch of this rotation discussion is about 'eventually' when guys like Precious and Barnes settle in or prove themselves. How about right off the hop? Who's the starting 5 and who's your first off the bench?

I really have no idea if they throw Barnes in there right away or how heavily they use Dragic. I wouldn't be surprised with any of:

FVV/GTJ/OG/Barnes/Birch with Dragic as 1st guard and Boucher as 1st big off the bench

or

FVV/GTJ/OG/Boucher/Birch with Barnes as 1st off the bench for a perimeter or forward spots and Dragic next off the bench

or even

FVV/Dragic/GTJ/OG/Birch with Barnes or Boucher as 1st off the bench I really don't know anymore

I think we try the second one you mentioned there as our day 1 starters. I don't think we gift Barnes a starting gig right away. Boucher can play off the bench, and did a lot of that last season, but he was also one of the guys that worked hard all year. I could see Nurse rewarding him for that.

Dragic was also a bench guy for Miami for a lot of the year (Nunn started). And Trent just got paid to basically start.

Masai and Bobby pretty much created many mix and match opportunities for Nick. He can really go in any direction.

[MixxAOR]

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontorapt...ookin_like_mj/

he got sneaky athleticism.