Everything Scottie Barnes

[DanH]

Exaggerating for sure.. but Pascal had a sub 21% usage next to Kawhi. And he had 4 shooters around him. Will Pascal take a back seat to Scottie if we want Scottie's usage to get to the mid 20's like he did with Kawhi when he was younger?

Pascal isn't a great #1 option. And I don't think his ego and max contract will allow him to be a #2 option, at least not when the #1 option is the younger Scottie Barnes.

When Scottie develops the aggressiveness needed to actually take those possessions rather than handing the ball back to whoever just passed it to him, I have zero doubt Pascal can slide effortlessly into the 2nd option role.

[TrueTorontoFan]

We think Pascal has that big of an ego now?

We do need to stop pampering Scottie. If he wants to be the #1 option, its up to him to show it, especially when you have an All-NBA caliber player ahead of you. If he does show it, Pascal and Fred will be fine with it I'm sure.

this has been my point for a while now. Barnes has the tools and everything to be more aggressive. Can't say for Fred but Pascal certainly has no ego. At times Barnes floats in and out of games. His most recent 5 game stretch he was much more consistent from the jump.

[planetmars]

When Scottie develops the aggressiveness needed to actually take those possessions rather than handing the ball back to whoever just passed it to him, I have zero doubt Pascal can slide effortlessly into the 2nd option role.

It's the nuance argument that we had when Kyle left. Scottie may never develop that aggressiveness. But the problem is the future is bleak if we don't force it on him. This team needs to figure out if we should ride and die with Scottie or not. And we will never figure that out if there is a guy on the team making the max.

It's a problem every team faces when a new star rookie comes in and there is a player on the team already that was the guy. Eventually a team has to remove that previous guy so the next one can step up properly. It's difficult to keep paying a guy a max contract that's used to a high usage, and then having to play second fiddle to someone younger. It requires a lot of changes for that high usage player to be able to do that. And for a coach to agree to that too.

I don't ever see Pascal being the #2 to Scottie, unless Pascal was like 35 years old and becoming more of a role player like Tim Duncan was in San Antonio. Or if Pascal got hurt for a majority of the year and came back to the Scottie show. That's basically what happened between Paul George and Danny Granger.

I like Pascal a lot and will go to bat for him. And I'd be totally cool with trading Scottie as well. I just don't think Pascal+Scottie is going to deliver us a lot of success as a tandem though. So something will have to give eventually.

With that said, I don't think its the right time to trade Pascal since he's going to have an expiring contract next year. Wait until he extends. Then that's when his value will be at its highest - like it was with both Mitchell and Gobert.

[planetmars]

We think Pascal has that big of an ego now?

We do need to stop pampering Scottie. If he wants to be the #1 option, its up to him to show it, especially when you have an All-NBA caliber player ahead of you. If he does show it, Pascal and Fred will be fine with it I'm sure.

It's not about ego.. it's about a hierarchy on an NBA team. Pascal is one of the faces of the team. He's the all-star. He's the guy that will get the most minutes. Most of the time Pascal will have the ball in his hands as that's what the coach will want. It's the argument Fred and Pascal were trying to make about Kyle. Scottie will never be the guy with Pascal around. Unless if Pascal gets hurt for a lot of the year and comes back slowly. Or if Pascal gets old and becomes more like a role player (like Duncan was in San Antonio, or Dirk was in Dallas).

Maybe Scottie never becomes a #1 option. Maybe that's not his style. It's not about pampering.. it's about the Raptors future. If we don't think Scottie is going to be all that great, then maybe we need to consider moving him while his stock will never be as high as it is now (I mean we apparently turned down KD trades because we didn't want to include Scottie). This team needs an infusion of talent, and top end talent to take us to that next level. We saw ultimate success with Pascal as a #2 option to a better player. How do we get that better player if Scottie isn't that guy? If we're going to rely on the draft, then the next kid will face the same issues. They won't get the ball as Pascal will always get it first.

Or do we try to force things by saying.. you know what Scottie might be that guy but the only way to figure that out is to remove any roadblocks. Pascal is unfortunately a roadblock.

[planetmars]

And Scottie is a great #1 option?

I'd like to see Scottie takes Fred's 23.1% usage and he'd be fine as the #2 option behind Pascal. He's not ready to be a #1 option until he can consistently hit 3s or dominate in the post.

I don't buy the myth that Fred is fine with being off ball. He said over and over again in the media his game was suffering this year because we asked him to play off ball. That's not something you'd say if you were fine with it. You'd take responsibility for your own shitty play and not blame being off ball.

We will never know if Scottie is a great #1 option with Pascal here - and that's the point I'm trying to make.

I don't mind if they move on from Fred but they better replace him with a guy that can shoot, and can handle the ball. We need more guards not less. As for the off ball stuff - I heard what Fred said. And lately Fred has been doing a lot of off ball stuff. Not when multiple rotation players are hurt.. but when fully healthy, Fred has been reigning it in a lot.

[The Claw Reborn]

i'm not ready to say definitively what scottie can or can't be. he's shown flashes of being able to take over either as a scoring option or primary playmaker. all i know is he needs the ball more to develop for any of us or the organization to be able to say.

i have said ad nauseum that i think fred is a better pairing on paper than pascal, because he's able to play off-ball and provide secondary playmaking duties. however, since the jak trade fred has dominated the shit out of the ball and it's left both pascal and scottie as bystanders at times. this is not a criticism of either fred or jak as it's been super effective (see zack lowe's then things today), but i don't it bodes well for scottie's development.

either way i agree with the conclusion of lowe's blurb:

Chris slowly seeing the light.

totally welcome the opinion, thanks

Woot woot

[DanH]

I dunno, I don't buy this argument that it's impossible for a guy to slide from #1 to #2 to make room for a developing star. Not sure why we'd be certain of that at all.

[Primer]

I dunno, I don't buy this argument that it's impossible for a guy to slide from #1 to #2 to make room for a developing star. Not sure why we'd be certain of that at all.

I think Pascal would welcome a new 1b that isn't Fred. There just isn't room for Scottie to move up the pecking order with both Fred and Pascal here, and since Fred can't make shots I'd rather he get bumped out.

[DanH]

I think Pascal would welcome a new 1b that isn't Fred. There just isn't room for Scottie to move up the pecking order with both Fred and Pascal here, and since Fred can't make shots I'd rather he get bumped out.

Fred is in no way an impediment to Scottie moving up. Right now he's just the only player who can run a PnR. Once Scottie is better at that, he can take those possessions.

[Primer]

Fred is in no way an impediment to Scottie moving up. Right now he's just the only player who can run a PnR. Once Scottie is better at that, he can take those possessions.

Agree to disagree here. Fred is not gonna be 3rd banana on any team. His ego won't let him.

[Kagemusha]

Fred is in no way an impediment to Scottie moving up. Right now he's just the only player who can run a PnR. Once Scottie is better at that, he can take those possessions.

LMFAO
Fred for 2 years FAILED to run the PnR with Birch and Precious and Chris,
now he is the only one that can run it with Jak??????

[A.I]

LMFAO
Fred for 2 years FAILED to run the PnR with Birch and Precious and Chris,
now he is the only one that can run it with Jak??????

There is a pretty significant difference between Poeltl and Precious, Boucher and Birch.

Poeltl knows how to set screens a lot better, better hands and finishes better on the roll.

[Kagemusha]

There is a pretty significant difference between Poeltl and Precious, Boucher and Birch.

Poeltl knows how to set screens a lot better, better hands and finishes better on the roll.

That IS the point.
Jak is the main reason for Fred's recent success, so credit to Jak instead.
PnR can be run by Scottie too, or by Pascal, or any one of our guards, when given the chance, as long as the partner is Jak.

[Primer]

There is a pretty significant difference between Poeltl and Precious, Boucher and Birch.

Poeltl knows how to set screens a lot better, better hands and finishes better on the roll.

I agree with this. I think the point he was making is any average NBA player could run the PNR with Poeltl because he's a beast at it and it's maybe the first play you learn while learning basketball. I find it hard to believe anyone could play long enough to make it to the NBA without having run a shit ton of pick and roll on the way. Fred is not the only one on the team who could run a pick and roll with Poeltl.

[Kagemusha]

I agree with this. I think the point he was making is any average NBA player could run the PNR with Poeltl because he's a beast at it and it's maybe the first play you learn while learning basketball. I find it hard to believe anyone could play long enough to make it to the NBA without having run a shit ton of pick and roll on the way. Fred is not the only one on the team who could run a pick and roll with Poeltl.

Exactly.
Credit should go to Poeltl, not Fred who had been shit at it before Jak came in.