Everything 2021-2022 Season

[TrueTorontoFan]

I'm pretty suspicious of the general covid hysteria by this point. Absolutely on board with flatten the curve and make sure health facilities are not overwhelmed. Also, high risk demographics should be getting vaccinated and restrictions may be needed at times. But early treatment is important and being totally ignored in "vaccines only" countries like ours. People are literally just sent home until their health is bad enough to need ICU care. This is crazy and an approach many countries, ones that have fought their way out of delta and ones that have never bottomed out with delta, are not taking. It's arguably malpractice and certainly has cost lives. But our hubris/myopic approach/fanaticism for the patent protected products of major pharmaceuticals is all pretty remarkable, we are determined to maintain the course we've set, emerging information and learning as we go be damned.

Anyway, 397 Canadians in my age bracket (40-49) have died from COVID so far. That would round to about ~265 over 12 months. Over 2,000 Canadians in my age bracket die from cancer every year. Over 1,000 die in accidents. Over 800 from heart disease. Over 600 commit suicide.

I'm more than 20 times more likely to die from any of the 10 leading causes of death for 40-49 year olds than I am from COVID this year. 4.8 million Canadians in this age bracket, 397 COVID deaths.

Severe COVID outcomes skew heavily towards the elderly and pre-existing conditions like obesity, respiratory issues, immunocompromised people. Last I heard about a month ago, the average age in AB for COVID deaths was 80. High risk people need to be protected with vaccines. On the other side, frightened parents and educators are starting to advocate for childhood vaccinations - where the risk of an adverse vaccine reaction is literally higher than the risk of COVID. Some policies that were initially and demonstrably about health have completely lost the plot, some of what's happening now borders on religious fanaticism. It won't stop short of 100% vaccination, by nearly any means, and we'll continue to turn on each other until we get there. We've already moved the goalposts well past the "80% for herd immunity" target and haven't even bothered to set the next one. Just get everybody vaccinated.

I don't understand the broad strokes. Our public health strategy should be targeted and multifaceted. It's oversimplified, coming at great expense to a lot of people, and arguably is facilitating emergence of variants. There are good public health arguments for the role of natural immunity and a number of countries incorporating that factor into their COVID response. Not us, we just need more vaccines. Praise be to Pfizer.

There's so much to learn from other countries. We don't know why countries in Africa, with barriers to vaccine access and middling implementation of response efforts/restrictions, are not anywhere near worst case scenarios 18 months into this pandemic. Several Scandinavian countries have stopped using Moderna for people under 30 due to a growing body of data on adverse effects. I believe Iceland has stopped using Moderna altogether. Meanwhile we've got people getting additional jabs if they didn't get MRNA the first time around and were lining up Pfizer boosters due to dropping effectiveness after just a few months, after our government loudly declared "Quit vaccine shopping they're all good, take whichever one you get."

And I do not think the end justifies the means, no matter how noble the goals. Some of the current policies are not good in a free or democratic society. Some of the countries most hesitant with lockdowns, or with the most pushback against mandates and passports, are ones that have lived under facism in the last ~50 years. It's not just Trumpers protesting mandates and passports, it's young people in Paris, Italians, other Europeans, Canadians. It's got nothing to do with left/right, a framing pro-mandate/pro-passport advocates have successfully made here and in the US. I don't think it's hyperbole at all to call this level of government intervention authoritarianism. Democratic governments mandating needles in arms? Restricting who is in your house? Restricting the travel of citizens? Not just over a few days or weeks in a sudden emergency mind you, but over years. With no end in sight. I don't see an end game with a vaccines-only strategy. These vaccines don't eliminate COVID liek they did polio, and, at least some or them, already don't appear to stand up over time. We're going to have increasing breakthroughs, boosters, dropping effectiveness, and emerging evidence of adverse reactions. We're going to have to decide what to do with all those risk factors at some point because we aren't getting to 0% or 'post-COVID', ever.

Most disappointing I think is how eager most Canadians are to be policed and to police each other. I'm a lot more inclined to want to be in a more liberal society - and at times to live with the consequences.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - - CS Lewis

​​​​​

Comparing this to facism or Germany in the past is silly. I think in places like the US or Alberta.. we saw what a more hands off approach did to their hospitalization rates.


I think a big part of this is public front facing and messaging standpoint which on alamost every front has been a failure on all sides.

In terms of preventative treeatments... most of the early suggested treatments didn't work if you actually looked at the data. Things like hydroxychloroquine. Also if you know your biochem you would know that mechanistically it likely wasn't the thing that was going to work. It isn't an antiviral. Same with Ivermectin.

For HCQ it was actually used with other drugs that were antiviral and it by itself was just an immune suppressor.


That said, you made very good points about the issue with drug patents and big pharma in general. One big issue is politicians on all sides make or try to make decisions that aren't necessarily grounded in science. Ideally you would have economic decisions made by a group of economists that come together and look at all possibilities. Health decisions made by health care people. etc etc etc. Our society isn't set up like that currently.

[Primer]

I'm pretty suspicious of the general covid hysteria by this point. Absolutely on board with flatten the curve and make sure health facilities are not overwhelmed. Also, high risk demographics should be getting vaccinated and restrictions may be needed at times. But early treatment is important and being totally ignored in "vaccines only" countries like ours. People are literally just sent home until their health is bad enough to need ICU care. This is crazy and an approach many countries, ones that have fought their way out of delta and ones that have never bottomed out with delta, are not taking. It's arguably malpractice and certainly has cost lives. But our hubris/myopic approach/fanaticism for the patent protected products of major pharmaceuticals is all pretty remarkable, we are determined to maintain the course we've set, emerging information and learning as we go be damned.

Anyway, 397 Canadians in my age bracket (40-49) have died from COVID so far. That would round to about ~265 over 12 months. Over 2,000 Canadians in my age bracket die from cancer every year. Over 1,000 die in accidents. Over 800 from heart disease. Over 600 commit suicide.

I'm more than 20 times more likely to die from any of the 10 leading causes of death for 40-49 year olds than I am from COVID this year. 4.8 million Canadians in this age bracket, 397 COVID deaths.

Severe COVID outcomes skew heavily towards the elderly and pre-existing conditions like obesity, respiratory issues, immunocompromised people. Last I heard about a month ago, the average age in AB for COVID deaths was 80. High risk people need to be protected with vaccines. On the other side, frightened parents and educators are starting to advocate for childhood vaccinations - where the risk of an adverse vaccine reaction is literally higher than the risk of COVID. Some policies that were initially and demonstrably about health have completely lost the plot, some of what's happening now borders on religious fanaticism. It won't stop short of 100% vaccination, by nearly any means, and we'll continue to turn on each other until we get there. We've already moved the goalposts well past the "80% for herd immunity" target and haven't even bothered to set the next one. Just get everybody vaccinated.

I don't understand the broad strokes. Our public health strategy should be targeted and multifaceted. It's oversimplified, coming at great expense to a lot of people, and arguably is facilitating emergence of variants. There are good public health arguments for the role of natural immunity and a number of countries incorporating that factor into their COVID response. Not us, we just need more vaccines. Praise be to Pfizer.

There's so much to learn from other countries. We don't know why countries in Africa, with barriers to vaccine access and middling implementation of response efforts/restrictions, are not anywhere near worst case scenarios 18 months into this pandemic. Several Scandinavian countries have stopped using Moderna for people under 30 due to a growing body of data on adverse effects. I believe Iceland has stopped using Moderna altogether. Meanwhile we've got people getting additional jabs if they didn't get MRNA the first time around and were lining up Pfizer boosters due to dropping effectiveness after just a few months, after our government loudly declared "Quit vaccine shopping they're all good, take whichever one you get."

And I do not think the end justifies the means, no matter how noble the goals. Some of the current policies are not good in a free or democratic society. Some of the countries most hesitant with lockdowns, or with the most pushback against mandates and passports, are ones that have lived under facism in the last ~50 years. It's not just Trumpers protesting mandates and passports, it's young people in Paris, Italians, other Europeans, Canadians. It's got nothing to do with left/right, a framing pro-mandate/pro-passport advocates have successfully made here and in the US. I don't think it's hyperbole at all to call this level of government intervention authoritarianism. Democratic governments mandating needles in arms? Restricting who is in your house? Restricting the travel of citizens? Not just over a few days or weeks in a sudden emergency mind you, but over years. With no end in sight. I don't see an end game with a vaccines-only strategy. These vaccines don't eliminate COVID liek they did polio, and, at least some or them, already don't appear to stand up over time. We're going to have increasing breakthroughs, boosters, dropping effectiveness, and emerging evidence of adverse reactions. We're going to have to decide what to do with all those risk factors at some point because we aren't getting to 0% or 'post-COVID', ever.

Most disappointing I think is how eager most Canadians are to be policed and to police each other. I'm a lot more inclined to want to be in a more liberal society - and at times to live with the consequences.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” - - CS Lewis

​​​​​

Check the death rates in USA where we didn't do much to keep people alive. That's what unchecked covid looks like. The death rate in Canada is super low because you guys went lock down crazy. Not because covid isn't dangerous. Death rates for younger people have also gone up a ton with delta. So the early data isn't accurate anymore.

The good news is if you get the vaccine you almost certainly will not die or be hospitalized or have long Covid symptoms like losing your ability to taste and smell (data is showing it can destroy the olfactory region in the brain) or heart issues. It's free and safe and it works. If everyone had it the pandemic would be over.

[Kagemusha]

Check the death rates in USA where we didn't do much to keep people alive. That's what unchecked covid looks like. The death rate in Canada is super low because you guys went lock down crazy. Not because covid isn't dangerous. Death rates for younger people have also gone up a ton with delta. So the early data isn't accurate anymore.

The good news is if you get the vaccine you almost certainly will not die or be hospitalized or have long Covid symptoms like losing your ability to taste and smell (data is showing it can destroy the olfactory region in the brain) or heart issues. It's free and safe and it works. If everyone had it the pandemic would be over.

Death rates in the US is higher coz more Americans are generally unhealthy compared to us Canadians.
It's almost automatically game over when an obese person gets hit by covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html

[TrueTorontoFan]

Death rates in the US is higher coz more Americans are generally unhealthy compared to us Canadians.
It's almost automatically game over when an obese person gets hit by covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html

Death rate is higher in the US for a number of reasons that go beyond the prevalence of obesity and diabetes.

[Kagemusha]

Death rate is higher in the US for a number of reasons that go beyond the prevalence of obesity and diabetes.

Read up. Why do you guys still won't accept that fact? It's common sense, at the very least.

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n623

[DanH]

Death rates in the US is higher coz more Americans are generally unhealthy compared to us Canadians.
It's almost automatically game over when an obese person gets hit by covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...onditions.html

Good job! You figured it out! The thing every single doctor and epidemiologist missed! Congrats. Wonder why they think COVID is a big deal still. You should try to get a hold of them, explain the situation to them.

Guess what, that list of higher risk conditions is long for a reason. A lot of people have something on that list, and that's true here too.

Somehow I doubt the US's 36% obesity rate versus our 29% obesity rate explains why they have 2.5x the death rate we do.

Heck, if it's game over, why haven't 30% of COVID cases ended in death then?

[Dvdvideo]

Dan I think the problem isn't so much the facts, as it is that people have reached a conclusion and then reach for "data" to back up a conclusion.
You can support almost any conclusion grabbing at bits and pieces that happen to fit.

In addition to this, the other day I was reading an article about some unfortunate person who, after getting covid, said they were wrong and wished they had been vacinated. They said they didn't know what to believe, citing youtube and facebook unfortunately as thier primary sources of information. And there are many people looking to these sources for info. Combine this with pressure and it's pushing people away from verified science and towards theory. I'm not sure what the solution is. 🤔

I'm not even sure who's to blame, facebook, Google, other countries planting disinformation, certain political forces looking to capitalize, "doctors" looking to cash in with unverified theories. I'm also not sure that our friends, family, neighbors who are caught up in this should be vilified. I was saying to someone the other day, about someone who didn't get their teen vacinated - don't you think they would've have done so if they thought it would save them? Of course they would, its just the information they have seen has betrayed them.

[saints91]

There’s about 7% of our population that doesn’t understand it, and do not care to understand it. Whether their conspiracy theorists, libertarians or anti authority it’s not worth our energy at this point. They’ve been fighting the recommendations all along.

Shortly we’ll have 87% of eligible Canadians fully vaccinated which is impressive. In a month or two children will be vaccinated at similar rates.

At this point just ignore the chatter and enjoy the indoor dinning and live events. A lot of things we enjoy in society are a privilege not a right, some people are learning that the hard way.

[saints91]

I'm not even sure blame.

In the US, it’s Trump. There’s a reason our vaccine rates are one of the highest in the world. Every level of government was preaching the same message since the beginning.

Trump muddled the message every step of the way and played down the the threat. Him and his administration are 100% to blame for what’s going on there. It doesn’t matter who took over, it’s hard to walk back that damage.

[Kagemusha]

In the US, it’s Trump. There’s a reason our vaccine rates are one of the highest in the world. Every level of government was preaching the same message since the beginning.

Trump muddled the message every step of the way and played down the the threat. Him and his administration are 100% to blame for what’s going on there. It doesn’t matter who took over, it’s hard to walk back that damage.

Lol.
blame Trump for every disaster.
Trump was pro vaccine from the very start.

[Kagemusha]

Dan I think the problem isn't so much the facts, as it is that people have reached a conclusion and then reach for "data" to back up a conclusion.
You can support almost any conclusion grabbing at bits and pieces that happen to fit.

In addition to this, the other day I was reading an article about some unfortunate person who, after getting covid, said they were wrong and wished they had been vacinated. They said they didn't know what to believe, citing youtube and facebook unfortunately as thier primary sources of information. And there are many people looking to these sources for info. Combine this with pressure and it's pushing people away from verified science and towards theory. I'm not sure what the solution is. 🤔

I'm not even sure who's to blame, facebook, Google, other countries planting disinformation, certain political forces looking to capitalize, "doctors" looking to cash in with unverified theories. I'm also not sure that our friends, family, neighbors who are caught up in this should be vilified. I was saying to someone the other day, about someone who didn't get their teen vacinated - don't you think they would've have done so if they thought it would save them? Of course they would, its just the information they have seen has betrayed them.

There are legit deaths from the vaccine too and it's normal for people to be skeptical.
You can check the Israel case and more recently Singapore too.

It helps to be open minded..
check every info and don't be too one sided.

[Dvdvideo]

There are legit deaths from the vaccine too and it's normal for people to be skeptical.
You can check the Israel case and more recently Singapore too.

It helps to be open minded..
check every info and don't be too one sided.

I can't dispute that, and most people I assume who took the vacine (or didn't) weighed the risk from the vacine vs the risk from covid. I know that's what I did, for me it wasn't even close, I figured basically 10 times more likely to die or have serious complication from covid than the vacine.
Definately not risk free, but the lesser of two evils.

The thing that rams it home for me is that the vast majority (let's say 99%) of the world's scientists say it's better to take it than not to. When was the last time 99% of any group got together and agreed on anything? Let alone an entire country, or the entire world? That's about as unanimous as anything will ever get in our lifetime. And we rely and trust these same doctors when we get sick with anything else.
(well for the most part anyhow)

One thing I have admit though, is I could be wrong. Time will likely tell.

[Kagemusha]

I can't dispute that, and most people I assume who took the vacine (or didn't) weighed the risk from the vacine vs the risk from covid. I know that's what I did, for me it wasn't even close, I figured basically 10 times more likely to die or have serious complication from covid than the vacine.
Definately not risk free, but the lesser of two evils.

The thing that rams it home for me is that the vast majority (let's say 99%) of the world's scientists say it's better to take it than not to. When was the last time 99% of any group got together and agreed on anything? Let alone an entire country, or the entire world? That's about as unanimous as anything will ever get in our lifetime. And we rely and trust these same doctors when we get sick with anything else.
(well for the most part anyhow)

Lol.
You just guessed that number (99%) and stuck with it for emphasis. So subtle.

One reason for that is bcoz
1. Covid fatigue which leads to them just bite the bullet
2. Ego. They wont accept that they erred
3. Sadly, prevalent medical practice is mostly band aid solution.

[Kagemusha]

I can't dispute that, and most people I assume who took the vacine (or didn't) weighed the risk from the vacine vs the risk from covid. I know that's what I did, for me it wasn't even close, I figured basically 10 times more likely to die or have serious complication from covid than the vacine.
Definately not risk free, but the lesser of two evils.

The thing that rams it home for me is that the vast majority (let's say 99%) of the world's scientists say it's better to take it than not to. When was the last time 99% of any group got together and agreed on anything? Let alone an entire country, or the entire world? That's about as unanimous as anything will ever get in our lifetime. And we rely and trust these same doctors when we get sick with anything else.
(well for the most part anyhow)

Lol.
You just guessed that number (99%) and stuck with to drive it home. So subtle.

Potential reasons for that 'consensus'?
1. Covid fatigue which leads to them just bite the bullet
2. Ego. They wont accept that they erred
3. Sadly, prevalent medical practice is mostly band aid solution.

[Kagemusha]

Good job! You figured it out! The thing every single doctor and epidemiologist missed! Congrats. Wonder why they think COVID is a big deal still. You should try to get a hold of them, explain the situation to them.

Guess what, that list of higher risk conditions is long for a reason. A lot of people have something on that list, and that's true here too.

Somehow I doubt the US's 36% obesity rate versus our 29% obesity rate explains why they have 2.5x the death rate we do.

Heck, if it's game over, why haven't 30% of COVID cases ended in death then?

Nope.
Doctors didn't miss it.
You're just not reading enough.

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-...uring-pandemic

"Covid is an acute inflammatory process and obesity is a chronic inflammatory process. The interaction between these two is a .. perfect storm for disaster."
Dr. Fatima Stanford, Harvard Medical School


"Covid is deadlier in people with obesity-
even if they're young"

https://www.science.org/content/arti...f-theyre-young

​​​​​​​
'A doctor with Novant Health estimates that at least 9 out of 10 covid patients in the ICU across the state are also obese'

https://www.wistv.com/2021/09/23/obe...ildren-adults/