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  • If Love was a little more lucky he would've had better resume than Bosh. But Warriors existed.
    Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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    • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
      If Love was a little more lucky he would've had better resume than Bosh. But Warriors existed.
      Injuries derailed that Cavs team more than the Warriors I think. That series is what I point to whenever someone says Toronto beat an injured Warriors team in the Finals. Shit goes both ways.

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      • planetmars wrote: View Post

        James Worthy is also overrated, but got to play with Magic and Kareem. It is what it is. Rodman has those rings because he played with MJ and Thomas/Dumars. He was a role player. It's who you get to play with that matters. And Bosh got to play with James and Wade.

        Anyway, you put Siakam on that team that Colangelo built instead of Bosh, and I really doubt he gets by the first round as well.

        We're comparing Pascal to Chris here, right?

        Pascal has just begun to accumulate a resume and Bosh is already done . You say put Siakam on the Colengelo team well I could say put Pascal on the Heat team and he would have won 2 rings also ... Siakam without Kawhi was one of the key players on a 53-19 season and won their 1st round series in the playoffs.

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        • Primer wrote: View Post

          Injuries derailed that Cavs team more than the Warriors I think. That series is what I point to whenever someone says Toronto beat an injured Warriors team in the Finals. Shit goes both ways.
          Aldridge and Love I put in the same catergory as Bosh .. Although both had to start their careers in the West .. The funny thing is Bosh thinks he is in the same category as Garnnet and Duncan .

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          • guyroch wrote: View Post

            Aldridge and Love I put in the same catergory as Bosh .. Although both had to start their careers in the West .. The funny thing is Bosh thinks he is in the same category as Garnnet and Duncan .
            If Bosh was like Duncan or Garnett he could have led Toronto to the playoffs every year. The East was total garbage back then and one really good player was enough for the 8th seed.

            Bosh is a very good second and third fiddle, but not a 1a player. He's lucky he went to Miami or he never sniffs the HOF.

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            • guyroch wrote: View Post

              Pascal has just begun to accumulate a resume and Bosh is already done . You say put Siakam on the Colengelo team well I could say put Pascal on the Heat team and he would have won 2 rings also ... Siakam without Kawhi was one of the key players on a 53-19 season and won their 1st round series in the playoffs.
              If Bosh never suited up for Miami and retired from the game in 2010 (the year he went to Miami) and we just compared him to Pascal as you know him right now.. then who was/is better? I have Bosh over Pascal. But I also think Pascal could overtake Bosh if he plays another 2-3 in Toronto as the #1 option.

              That's all I'm saying. Of course Pascal could have won chips with Lebron and Wade. But I don't care about his Miami years. Those years got him to the Hall. It's about Bosh's tenure in Toronto compared to Pascal's tenure in Toronto. Who was better?

              Do you believe Pascal right now, today was better than Bosh was as a Raptor? Because I don't agree to that. Bosh was a weird dude and didn't really do much in Toronto (although to his credit his team was garbage). But he still put up better stats than Siakam did.

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              • planetmars wrote: View Post

                If Bosh never suited up for Miami and retired from the game in 2010 (the year he went to Miami) and we just compared him to Pascal as you know him right now.. then who was/is better? I have Bosh over Pascal. But I also think Pascal could overtake Bosh if he plays another 2-3 in Toronto as the #1 option.

                That's all I'm saying. Of course Pascal could have won chips with Lebron and Wade. But I don't care about his Miami years. Those years got him to the Hall. It's about Bosh's tenure in Toronto compared to Pascal's tenure in Toronto. Who was better?

                Do you believe Pascal right now, today was better than Bosh was as a Raptor? Because I don't agree to that. Bosh was a weird dude and didn't really do much in Toronto (although to his credit his team was garbage). But he still put up better stats than Siakam did.
                His team was garbage would be the #1 reason he put up better stats than Siakam did. When you're by far the best player on on a bad team you get all the stats. Makes it very difficult to compare their Raptor's tenure just based on stats.

                If you value 3PT shooting then Siakam has to be your guy, Bosh essentially did not shoot 3's as a Raptor.

                If you value passing then Siakam has to be your guy, he's basically double the assists of Bosh as a Raptor.

                Their scoring is basically a wash, both hover around 22pts a game.

                Bosh was the superior rebounder, so if that's your metric then Bosh is your guy.

                If you value getting to the line, then Bosh has to be your guy, he got to the FT line way more than Siakam ever did.

                Bosh was also a slightly more efficient scorer, mainly due to his FTA's advantage.

                I think Miami Bosh is what he would have looked like on a good Raptors team like Siakam has played on, and Miami Bosh isn't better than Siakam to me.

                Anyways no real way to pick a winner here, I can see both sides of the argument as very valid. Classic offseason discussion.

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                • planetmars wrote: View Post

                  If Bosh never suited up for Miami and retired from the game in 2010 (the year he went to Miami) and we just compared him to Pascal as you know him right now.. then who was/is better? I have Bosh over Pascal. But I also think Pascal could overtake Bosh if he plays another 2-3 in Toronto as the #1 option.

                  That's all I'm saying. Of course Pascal could have won chips with Lebron and Wade. But I don't care about his Miami years. Those years got him to the Hall. It's about Bosh's tenure in Toronto compared to Pascal's tenure in Toronto. Who was better?

                  Do you believe Pascal right now, today was better than Bosh was as a Raptor? Because I don't agree to that. Bosh was a weird dude and didn't really do much in Toronto (although to his credit his team was garbage). But he still put up better stats than Siakam did.
                  Better overall scorer: Bosh (a lot more efficient than Pascal at similar USG)
                  Better playmaker: Pascal (higher AST%)
                  Better rebounder: Bosh (higher TRB%)
                  Better overall defender: Pascal (i.e. he defends 1-5, covers a ton of ground and is a key lynchpin of Nurse's scheme)
                  Higher impact: Bosh (better WS/48)

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                  • the fact that Bosh never rebounded that well with Miami makes you wonder if he was just stealing rebounds on shitty team ala Drummond
                    Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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                    • MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                      the fact that Bosh never rebounded that well with Miami makes you wonder if he was just stealing rebounds on shitty team ala Drummond
                      Bosh has a very similar career arc to Kevin Love. Great stats on bad teams, then riding Lebron to rings.

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                      • golden wrote: View Post

                        Better overall scorer: Bosh (a lot more efficient than Pascal at similar USG)
                        Better playmaker: Pascal (higher AST%)
                        Better rebounder: Bosh (higher TRB%)
                        Better overall defender: Pascal (i.e. he defends 1-5, covers a ton of ground and is a key lynchpin of Nurse's scheme)
                        Higher impact: Bosh (better WS/48)
                        Ultimately for me it's the impact measurements that do it for me. Pascal is essentially a PG in Nurse's system so will be a better passer. Chris was a proto-typical PF in the 2000's so will be a better rebounder, as he'd live in the paint on defense. And without taking many 3's he'd also be more efficient. He learned how to shoot 3's in Miami as they were one of the first to try the small ball thing (even before Golden State did it) but was still not taking many.

                        Did the Raptors ever switch with Triano or Mitchell? It was a lot of man to man. I don't even know if they played zone. Bosh wasn't a defensive savant or anything, but he had to hold his own playing with both Bargnani and Calderon, and also Hedo for that one year. He got some help with O'Neal and Marion but the entire team was typically a disaster on that end. He was an excellent defender for Miami but was also a role player there.

                        I guess it's why it is hard to compare guys who played in different eras, in different systems, with different teammates. I think I'd rather have Toronto's version of Bosh on this team over Pascal despite it being 2021 and not 2006 or 2007. I think Nurse would get a lot out of Bosh.

                        Bosh/Barnes/OG/Trent/FVV would look really, really good.

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                        • Yeah different players and but the main overall impact difference at this point is just longevity. Bosh was a top 5 pick who hit 20+ PPG and perennial All-Star status by 21. Siakam wasn't even sniffing the league at that point and his career arc is basically 4 years behind Bosh's and ran into COVID. Bosh's Raptors run was never interrupted by anything like that and he was chugging along in a pretty consistent (though mediocre) context here for several seasons, bridging the gap from Vince to DeMar.

                          Forget the overall Raptors resume, who would you want on the Raptors this upcoming year: peak Siakam or peak Bosh? I'd take Siakam.
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • S.R. wrote: View Post
                            Yeah different players and but the main overall impact difference at this point is just longevity. Bosh was a top 5 pick who hit 20+ PPG and perennial All-Star status by 21. Siakam wasn't even sniffing the league at that point and his career arc is basically 4 years behind Bosh's and ran into COVID. Bosh's Raptors run was never interrupted by anything like that and he was chugging along in a pretty consistent (though mediocre) context here for several seasons, bridging the gap from Vince to DeMar.

                            Forget the overall Raptors resume, who would you want on the Raptors this upcoming year: peak Siakam or peak Bosh? I'd take Siakam.
                            But what is the time interval we're using to define as "peak" though? For Siakam, it's basically the first few months of 2019-20 season? If we're taking averages over an entire season for best peaks, then Bosh wins hands down. Pascal just hasn't showed the ability to be efficient enough over an entire season, and his lows can be pretty low.

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                            • planetmars wrote: View Post

                              Ultimately for me it's the impact measurements that do it for me. Pascal is essentially a PG in Nurse's system so will be a better passer. Chris was a proto-typical PF in the 2000's so will be a better rebounder, as he'd live in the paint on defense. And without taking many 3's he'd also be more efficient. He learned how to shoot 3's in Miami as they were one of the first to try the small ball thing (even before Golden State did it) but was still not taking many.

                              Did the Raptors ever switch with Triano or Mitchell? It was a lot of man to man. I don't even know if they played zone. Bosh wasn't a defensive savant or anything, but he had to hold his own playing with both Bargnani and Calderon, and also Hedo for that one year. He got some help with O'Neal and Marion but the entire team was typically a disaster on that end. He was an excellent defender for Miami but was also a role player there.

                              I guess it's why it is hard to compare guys who played in different eras, in different systems, with different teammates. I think I'd rather have Toronto's version of Bosh on this team over Pascal despite it being 2021 and not 2006 or 2007. I think Nurse would get a lot out of Bosh.

                              Bosh/Barnes/OG/Trent/FVV would look really, really good.
                              Toronto Bosh would be an excellent center in today's NBA, so not even same position as Siakam, hence the difficulty comparing the 2 of them.

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                              • Primer wrote: View Post

                                If Bosh was like Duncan or Garnett he could have led Toronto to the playoffs every year. The East was total garbage back then and one really good player was enough for the 8th seed.

                                Bosh is a very good second and third fiddle, but not a 1a player. He's lucky he went to Miami or he never sniffs the HOF.
                                Perfectly said ..
                                Last edited by guyroch; Wed Sep 22, 2021, 02:01 PM.

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