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Greivis Vasquez + Lou Williams = Demar Derozan + Rudy Gay 2.0?

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  • Greivis Vasquez + Lou Williams = Demar Derozan + Rudy Gay 2.0?

    Watching the Heat game last night, I did see that the ball movement we used to have has been a problem. I do credit Miami for continually doing that with or without Lebron, but having Greivis and Lou together at the same time, they seem to clash as both look to score first, unlike last season when we had Grevis and De Colo, wherein De colo would be the pure point guard. The team had a great preseason, and lou williams was great, but mainly due to the fact that he played starter minutes and preseason, along with the other reserves while Kyle and Demar sat out most of the games. They do look like Rudy Gay and Demar last season.

    The only impressive reserve was James Johnson, who seems to know his role. I hope he stays that way and won't go back to his old habit of trying to do more offensively.

    It's just 3 games, but there are noticeable issues on both ends. And the Raps have yet to make a statement game (either a blowout of a weak team or a decisive win over a contender = they failed to do both in Orlando and Miami).

    I hope that last night's game would be a wake up call for the team that they can't rely on talent and hero ball to win. And no, we can't blame the refs. Raptors have been attempting more free throws significantly than their opponents.

  • #2
    Our defense sucked since last year except for one good month. Continuity.
    Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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    • #3
      I dont think GV is thrilled with Lou taking away mins and ball handling.

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      • #4
        2KJ wrote: View Post
        Watching the Heat game last night, I did see that the ball movement we used to have has been a problem. I do credit Miami for continually doing that with or without Lebron, but having Greivis and Lou together at the same time, they seem to clash as both look to score first, unlike last season when we had Grevis and De Colo, wherein De colo would be the pure point guard. The team had a great preseason, and lou williams was great, but mainly due to the fact that he played starter minutes and preseason, along with the other reserves while Kyle and Demar sat out most of the games. They do look like Rudy Gay and Demar last season.

        The only impressive reserve was James Johnson, who seems to know his role. I hope he stays that way and won't go back to his old habit of trying to do more offensively.

        It's just 3 games, but there are noticeable issues on both ends. And the Raps have yet to make a statement game (either a blowout of a weak team or a decisive win over a contender = they failed to do both in Orlando and Miami).

        I hope that last night's game would be a wake up call for the team that they can't rely on talent and hero ball to win. And no, we can't blame the refs. Raptors have been attempting more free throws significantly than their opponents.
        de colo was barely on the floor. its not like he was racking up assists.

        lou williams was brought in specifically for his shooting so i dont mind if hes taking most of the shots in the second unit anyway. who else is gonna take them? the only reason james johnson seemed more impressive than usual was that he was doing MORE than his role in a positive way when usually he shouldnt be shooting at all.

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        • #5
          iblastoff wrote: View Post
          de colo was barely on the floor. its not like he was racking up assists.

          lou williams was brought in specifically for his shooting so i dont mind if hes taking most of the shots in the second unit anyway. who else is gonna take them? the only reason james johnson seemed more impressive than usual was that he was doing MORE than his role in a positive way when usually he shouldnt be shooting at all.
          What I meant by that is De Colo was the main ball handler of the deep 2nd unit (ball handling like dribbling the ball to the court from out of bounds) , with Greivis playing the 2. So he would defer to Greivis to do the playmaking/scoring. But with Greivis and Lou on the floor at the same time, they seem to clash, like Rudy Gay and Derozan. It's different from when Greivis and Lowry are on the floor at the same time. It's not looking good so far. It's like having 2 John Lucas III on the floor at the same time. They seem to not have any plays or ball movement.

          I hope they do get this fixed. It has been only 3 games. We shall evaluate again after game 10.

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          • #6
            It would be nice if they staggered so lowry played more with lou, demar played more with greivis instead of both together.
            It's Klaw Season. Time to hunt.

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            • #7
              KeonClark wrote: View Post
              It would be nice if they staggered so lowry played more with lou, demar played more with greivis instead of both together.
              I also think with our bench guards out there, it might be the best time to use Jonas, even as a decoy, as a low-post threat. So far, GV and Lou have been out there together a lot, and often with shitty offensive players in the frontcourt...especially with 2Pat's jumper missing at the moment. Not a lot of space, and not a lot else for the D to pay attention to.

              Having Jonas out there to make the D worry about an inside presence can't be bad...even Amir out there to have a real threat on the roll could be a big help. In fact, GV's best stretch might've been in the ORL game when he was in with JV in the 4th. Greivis took advantage of JV's success and found easy paths to the basket because the D was so worried about Jonas.

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              • #8
                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                I also think with our bench guards out there, it might be the best time to use Jonas, even as a decoy, as a low-post threat. So far, GV and Lou have been out there together a lot, and often with shitty offensive players in the frontcourt...especially with 2Pat's jumper missing at the moment. Not a lot of space, and not a lot else for the D to pay attention to.

                Having Jonas out there to make the D worry about an inside presence can't be bad...even Amir out there to have a real threat on the roll could be a big help. In fact, GV's best stretch might've been in the ORL game when he was in with JV in the 4th. Greivis took advantage of JV's success and found easy paths to the basket because the D was so worried about Jonas.
                Forget as a decoy - just use him in the post. The bench mob could desperately use a real offensive option (and rim protector) and JV would wreak havoc on bench bigs. And the smaller Amir/PPat frontline works well with the starters. Not saying to change the starters, but mixing in those looks for 6 minutes a half would be helpful. More, if JV's minutes go up, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                • #9
                  DanH wrote: View Post
                  Forget as a decoy - just use him in the post. The bench mob could desperately use a real offensive option (and rim protector) and JV would wreak havoc on bench bigs. And the smaller Amir/PPat frontline works well with the starters. Not saying to change the starters, but mixing in those looks for 6 minutes a half would be helpful. More, if JV's minutes go up, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
                  The decoy comment was just to point out that he has an impact even in that role. And there is already evidence that it can help our guards get easy shots.

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                  • #10
                    There are guys on this board who are much better at breaking down X's and O's than I am, but to me it looks like our offense is actually designed to setup our perimeter players to get an open driving line to either score or get fouled. Our offense seems to be the polar opposite of the Spurs where the offense is designed to swing the ball until there is an open shot. Whether it's Lowry, Derozan, Vasquez or Williams, it seems like it's the same drive/ISO strategy as the primary option. And when the driving lanes are cut-off, we end up with some awkward heaves near the end of the clock. I could be way off base here, but I don't think it's the players, as much as the strategy

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                    • #11
                      golden wrote: View Post
                      There are guys on this board who are much better at breaking down X's and O's than I am, but to me it looks like our offense is actually designed to setup our perimeter players to get an open driving line to either score or get fouled. Our offense seems to be the polar opposite of the Spurs where the offense is designed to swing the ball until there is an open shot. Whether it's Lowry, Derozan, Vasquez or Williams, it seems like it's the same drive/ISO strategy as the primary option. And when the driving lanes are cut-off, we end up with some awkward heaves near the end of the clock. I could be way off base here, but I don't think it's the players, as much as the strategy
                      You're not wrong...and it's problematic because if guys aren't hitting the pop or roll man, the D is able to easily keep our drivers out of the lane, and as you say, force them into a bad shot (or force a pass to another shooter for the same thing).

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                      • #12
                        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        You're not wrong...and it's problematic because if guys aren't hitting the pop or roll man, the D is able to easily keep our drivers out of the lane, and as you say, force them into a bad shot (or force a pass to another shooter for the same thing).
                        Thanks WM. If we're setting up for the drive on purpose, then how much can you really blame the perimeter players who are being forced to create off the dribble, by design? And how much can you really blame Ross and JV who go for long stretches without really being involved in the offense. Hard for them to get a rhythm going.

                        Not saying that prioritizing the drive is necessarily a bad strategy, as it does put a lot of pressure on the defense and gets them in foul trouble. But it does encourage the ISO/hero ball and lack of ball movement when it's not working.

                        Not sure who is calling the plays (Casey or the PGs), but they need to get a better balance between JV post-ups, Ross catch & shoots, and DD/Lowry ISOs. Amir doesn't need plays called for him.

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                        • #13
                          golden wrote: View Post
                          Thanks WM. If we're setting up for the drive on purpose, then how much can you really blame the perimeter players who are being forced to create off the dribble, by design? And how much can you really blame Ross and JV who go for long stretches without really being involved in the offense. Hard for them to get a rhythm going.

                          Not saying that prioritizing the drive is necessarily a bad strategy, as it does put a lot of pressure on the defense and gets them in foul trouble. But it does encourage the ISO/hero ball and lack of ball movement when it's not working.

                          Not sure who is calling the plays (Casey or the PGs), but they need to get a better balance between JV post-ups, Ross catch & shoots, and DD/Lowry ISOs. Amir doesn't need plays called for him.
                          The thing is, the O was designed when we had less talent overall, and while JV is still a work in progress, he's good enough now to be utilized inside more. Need to make the effort to take advantage of his presence more.

                          I do think there is more effort to get JV involved now (at least so far this season), and it's already paid dividends at times for our perimeter players in the sets where we often have a guard creating from the wing (be it in ISO, handoff, or on a screen/p'n'r type play). I keep thinking back to that 4th Q against ATL, where Greivis had 2 easy drives because Jonas had been beasting so the D was overplaying the pass to him big time.

                          And that's the foundation of developing a real team system, where guys can all help make each others lives easier out there. Again, I do think JV is being involved more. He hasn't had tons of FGAs, but he's definitely being looked to more when he's in a good spot down low.

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                          • #14
                            golden wrote: View Post
                            Thanks WM. If we're setting up for the drive on purpose, then how much can you really blame the perimeter players who are being forced to create off the dribble, by design? And how much can you really blame Ross and JV who go for long stretches without really being involved in the offense. Hard for them to get a rhythm going.

                            Not saying that prioritizing the drive is necessarily a bad strategy, as it does put a lot of pressure on the defense and gets them in foul trouble. But it does encourage the ISO/hero ball and lack of ball movement when it's not working.

                            Not sure who is calling the plays (Casey or the PGs), but they need to get a better balance between JV post-ups, Ross catch & shoots, and DD/Lowry ISOs. Amir doesn't need plays called for him.
                            One thing that I've noticed is that the offense seems to lack any creativity or flexibility. They call a play and seem to run it come hell or high water, regardless what the defense is doing. If this play is a JV post-up, the play is run as called, even if JV can't establish the deep post. If this play is a Lowry drive, the play is run as called, even if it becomes a 1-on-3 with Ross wide open. I would much rather the system be geared towards general ball movement, but maybe it's a combination of low-bbiq players and relatively young/inexperienced players, or it's bad coaching, I don't know...

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                            • #15
                              Its trust too Calgary.... guys aren't trusting each other, you can tell. A lotof wide open looks missed.

                              And Strippers.

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