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2014-2015 Raptors Power Rankings

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  • octothorp wrote: View Post
    I posted this in another thread where this was referenced, but it belongs here too: After Atlanta and Golden State, the next 11 teams all have a mediocre record against teams above .500.

    Memphis is 13-10.
    Chicago is 13-10.
    San Antonio is 13-12.
    Clippers are 11-12.
    Toronto is 10-11.
    Cleveland is 11-12.
    Phoenix is 11-12.
    Washington is 10-12.
    Houston is 10-12.
    Dallas is 11-13.
    Portland is 10-13.
    Ya which makes sense. Just because your team is above 500 doesn't mean you're automatically better than all the other teams that are above 500. For the elite teams it comes down to match ups and execution. For example, we match up well with Washington but not Chicago but Washington had a better match up against Chicago.

    It's not like we're 10 games under 500 against the better teams. And for 21 games we didn't have DeMar so who knows what that record could be.
    Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
    Because its 2015

    Comment


    • golden wrote: View Post
      I don't think this really changes the point of East vs. West. It's easier to be a weak team and be above .500 in the East than it is in the West. East teams are playing each other more, so you're building a similar or worse W-L record against weaker 0.500 teams. If anything, this makes the argument stronger that the Rap are feasting on dregs.

      I mean, you only need to look at the Atlantic division. It's been horrible for years, but it seems to be reaching historic levels of ineptness, except for the Raps, this season. And the Raps are the only "elite' team that gets to play each of those guys 4 times. That's a pretty nice advantage that no other winning team in the league can boast.
      that record is against winning teams. obviously NONE of the wins we've gotten in our own division count towards it.

      Comment


      • iblastoff wrote: View Post
        unless you think we're supposed to be good as golden state, the stat is FINE.

        we're a team that made the playoffs just ONCE in the past forever, and all of a sudden we're supposed to be some elite team that should be able to beat all the best teams in the league? come on.

        the best team in the east thats performing against greater than .500 teams is atlanta who are basically playing like the best team in the league right now.

        outside of that, its chicago and they're only 13-10. thats not exactly elite looking. we have a better record against winning teams than washington and cleveland.

        out in the west, there are ONLY 2 teams who have a winning record against .500 teams and thats golden state and memphis, who are both obviously considered contenders. everyone else has a losing record (vs .500 teams).

        not sure why thats such a huge concern right now for the raptors.
        My quote you used to start should answer the question you used to finish.
        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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        • iblastoff wrote: View Post
          that record is against winning teams. obviously NONE of the wins we've gotten in our own division count towards it.
          Exactly. "We're 33-15, there's nothing wrong with the coach/defense/players" is a problem when you're the only +.500 team in your division.

          The Raptors are good, they're better than last year, they have a bright future, they have a good GM. All beside the only point being raised here, that the nice W/L record is a limited counter-argument to criticisms because it's inflated a bit in the same way Mike James getting 20 ppg on a bad team means less than Lowry getting 20 ppg on a good team. Both 20 ppg, but context changes everything.

          Also, it's one thing to say the Raptors are fine in the current stage of their development (which I think is what you're saying) while acknowledging there's a lot more development to come to get to the next level. It's another thing to say the Raptors are fine just because they're 33-15.
          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

          Comment


          • S.R. wrote: View Post
            Exactly. "We're 33-15, there's nothing wrong with the coach/defense/players" is a problem when you're the only +.500 team in your division.

            The Raptors are good, they're better than last year, they have a bright future, they have a good GM. All beside the only point being raised here, that the nice W/L record is a limited counter-argument to criticisms because it's inflated a bit in the same way Mike James getting 20 ppg on a bad team means less than Lowry getting 20 ppg on a good team. Both 20 ppg, but context changes everything.

            Also, it's one thing to say the Raptors are fine in the current stage of their development (which I think is what you're saying) while acknowledging there's a lot more development to come to get to the next level. It's another thing to say the Raptors are fine just because they're 33-15.
            as long as there are losses in ANYONES record, there will always be something to complain about.

            Comment


            • not long ago they were 15-33


              so yeah, they are just fine.

              Comment


              • octothorp wrote: View Post
                I posted this in another thread where this was referenced, but it belongs here too: After Atlanta and Golden State, the next 11 teams all have a mediocre record against teams above .500.

                Memphis is 13-10.
                Chicago is 13-10.
                San Antonio is 13-12.
                Clippers are 11-12.
                Toronto is 10-11.
                Cleveland is 11-12.
                Phoenix is 11-12.
                Washington is 10-12.
                Houston is 10-12.
                Dallas is 11-13.
                Portland is 10-13.
                Thanks for posting that. It actually does put things into perspective.

                Comment


                • The interesting thing is that these conversations always take a certain tenor depending on our recent successes or failures. After a good stretch, everything is okay; after a bad one, we suck.

                  The upcoming west coast road trip should give us the true measure of where we're at. If we get slaughtered I think it's fair to say we aren't where we need to be, but if we can hold our own I think it bodes well for the playoffs.

                  Comment


                  • golden wrote: View Post
                    I don't think this really changes the point of East vs. West. It's easier to be a weak team and be above .500 in the East than it is in the West. East teams are playing each other more, so you're building a similar or worse W-L record against weaker 0.500 teams. If anything, this makes the argument stronger that the Rap are feasting on dregs.

                    I mean, you only need to look at the Atlantic division. It's been horrible for years, but it seems to be reaching historic levels of ineptness, except for the Raps, this season. And the Raps are the only "elite' team that gets to play each of those guys 4 times. That's a pretty nice advantage that no other winning team in the league can boast.
                    Well that depends on what you mean by pretty nice advantage. Teams play out of division teams 36 times in a season, so they play 6 out of division teams 4 times, and 4 out of division teams 3 times. So in the worst case scenario a team in the eastern conference would have 4 less games against our division than we do. Eg. This season Atlanta plays boston and new york one less time each than we do for a grand total of two less games against the Atlantic Division

                    Comment


                    • iblastoff wrote: View Post
                      that record is against winning teams. obviously NONE of the wins we've gotten in our own division count towards it.
                      Yep, good catch on that one. But still, we've played more games against the East, and the East teams above .500 (e.g. Wizards, Hawks, Bucks, Bulls,...) get to feast on weak East teams. And remember, a .500 team in the East (Bucks) is not even in the playoff picture in the West and we get to play more of those teams, while a team like Portland has to play OKC (@ .489) four times, for example.

                      Comment


                      • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                        The interesting thing is that these conversations always take a certain tenor depending on our recent successes or failures. After a good stretch, everything is okay; after a bad one, we suck.

                        The upcoming west coast road trip should give us the true measure of where we're at
                        . If we get slaughtered I think it's fair to say we aren't where we need to be, but if we can hold our own I think it bodes well for the playoffs.
                        I think it's also funny that you bring up the west coast trip. Weren't lots of people saying the exact same thing about the last west coast trip just after christmas? Bottom line is we're fans, and we're going to get unreasonably up/down/sideways about any stretch because we're all a little bit crazy.

                        Anyway, good stretches or bad, some of the problems that persist have been the same for a long time. Some of them are coaching related, some of them are personnel related. For some of us it's getting to the point where we don't believe any significant (or any at all?) internal improvement can be expected with the former as long as Casey is coaching. Most would probably agree the latter can see some improvements both internally and externally.

                        Comment


                        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          I think it's also funny that you bring up the west coast trip. Weren't lots of people saying the exact same thing about the last west coast trip just after christmas? Bottom line is we're fans, and we're going to get unreasonably up/down/sideways about any stretch because we're all a little bit crazy.

                          Anyway, good stretches or bad, some of the problems that persist have been the same for a long time. Some of them are coaching related, some of them are personnel related. For some of us it's getting to the point where we don't believe any significant (or any at all?) internal improvement can be expected with the former as long as Casey is coaching. Most would probably agree the latter can see some improvements both internally and externally.
                          I only meant that as a counterpoint to the current "you guys are crazy, there's nothing wrong with the team" talk. We win a few games and then magically everyone says our problems are over, but that's all heavily context-dependent. I think we have to have real tests before we can say we're out of the woods. And ultimately the real test is going to be the playoffs, where our current style of play is likely to face serious challenges just like it did last year.

                          I thought this quote from Steve Kerr was especially relevant for us:

                          "My biggest concern as a coach,” he said, “is to not confuse winning with progress — if that makes sense. And it’s a hard message, because when you win, like, (in a couple of recent games) we’ve won by a fair margin, but I feel like we’ve regressed with our execution. We averaged 18 turnovers (in those two games), so we’ve had spells where we’ve lost our focus.

                          “Now how do I get that message across to the team? You know, ‘Hey, guys, we’re really lacking. I know we won by 20, but we’ve got to get better.’ But that’s a dangerous thing for a team that’s got big aspirations. It’s easy to slip and not perform to your level and still win games, and then you don’t realize what’s happened. So we’re trying to stay on our guys.”

                          Comment


                          • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                            I only meant that as a counterpoint to the current "you guys are crazy, there's nothing wrong with the team" talk. We win a few games and then magically everyone says our problems are over, but that's all heavily context-dependent. I think we have to have real tests before we can say we're out of the woods. And ultimately the real test is going to be the playoffs, where our current style of play is likely to face serious challenges just like it did last year.

                            I thought this quote from Steve Kerr was especially relevant for us:
                            Who is this everyone?

                            When Jack and Augustine combine for 70 points in 2 games, most of us, though NOT everyone realize this team has at least 1 real issue.

                            And it's Kerr's (and Casey's) job to get ulcers whether or not their teams are winning, not our job.

                            People constantly pounding gloom and doom on this board, especially when the team just pulled off a 4 wins in 5 nights does cause others to get their backs up.
                            If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                            Comment


                            • golden wrote: View Post
                              Yep, good catch on that one. But still, we've played more games against the East, and the East teams above .500 (e.g. Wizards, Hawks, Bucks, Bulls,...) get to feast on weak East teams. And remember, a .500 team in the East (Bucks) is not even in the playoff picture in the West and we get to play more of those teams, while a team like Portland has to play OKC (@ .489) four times, for example.
                              That sounds good, except that Washington and Chicago also have good records (in the .600 range) against the west, while Atlanta has by far the best record in the league against the West. Even Milwaukee has a better vs. West percentage than Phoenix. So at best, that argument is inconclusive.

                              Pretty much the only way to break it down further than that is to do comprehensive schedule analysis and weighting, like systems like Hollinger or Sagarin rankings do. These models to find that the west is significantly stronger: only 6 EC teams in the top 16, yet despite the weakness of the conference they still rate Toronto as 6th and 7th, respectively.

                              Comment


                              • these are cool:

                                http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/n...in-a-dogfight/

                                check out the link on the page to see how they do em
                                "Bruno?
                                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                                He's terrible."

                                -Superjudge, 7/23

                                Hope you're wrong.

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