"The Starters" Discussing the 6-1 Raptors

[Doc]

Decent segment. Albeit the guys are made up of 2 Canadian lads in Tas and Skeets, its no surprise the Toronto Raptors love. Tas makes a good observation though. That being, we know what DeMar and Kyle are going to bring to the table, but alot of this team's continued success (especially to get to that coveted 50 wins) is more consistency from Ross and Jonas.

Would you agree?

[JawsGT]

yeah, they re right of course. I mean, Demar has shown some improvement, and we know that Kyle can take over a game, but by no means should we expect Demar to become a super efficient stat stuffer that can do it all, nor can we expect Kyle to take over every single game. So the ability of the team to improve and go deeper into the playoffs will certainly be affected by the other players. Given both Ross and JV are young and are starters, that burden may very well fall on them moreso than others. However, Amir's health will be a huge factor, and a deeper bench will certainly help. Most good to great teams are in this situation. Sooner or later people are gonna be wondering who else is gonna step up for GSW. They ain't going deep on the backs of Curry and Thompson IMO, despite the way they have played so far, and one or two more players will have to 'step it up' in order for them to be true contenders. The 'knowns' have to give you what you expect, and the 'unknowns' have to step it up in order to take you over the hump. The Big3 needed Allen in order to win, the Spurs last season needed Kawhi to take a big leap. That's the nature of team sport really.

[92TillInfinity]

The team is undeniably better when Ross is hitting threes and focused on defense. However, I am of the opinion that Vasquez and Lou Trilliams' play is just as important. Without those two playing well, the second unit is hard to watch. I wish Casey would keep one of Lowry/DeRozan on the court at all times to maintain the offensive intensity and focus.

[kopite91]

They have a good podcast that I listen to from time to time. I liked Skeets and Taz when they worked for The Score..

[octothorp]

The team is undeniably better when Ross is hitting threes and focused on defense. However, I am of the opinion that Vasquez and Lou Trilliams' play is just as important. Without those two playing well, the second unit is hard to watch. I wish Casey would keep one of Lowry/DeRozan on the court at all times to maintain the offensive intensity and focus.

Unlike most here, I'm actually a fan of the two line approach early in the season. Getting these bench guys guys going together, getting them confident, getting them understanding what their primary roles need to be, all of that is more important early in the season than wins (but fortunately it's not come at the cost of wins). And already you're seeing the benefit of that. First few games, the all-bench lineup struggled. Now, it's coming in and building on what the starters have done. I don't think that would have happened if the second-unit was in a 'pass to DeRozan and let him create offense' mode.

Through a limited sample size, the Vasquez, Williams, J.Johnson, Patterson, Hansbrough lineup has a +.07 in their net offensive/defensive ratings. (Compared to a ridiculous, whopping +.40 for the starters). That's still decent for a bench, especially when you consider that they looked awful the first three games but have found their stride of late, so I'd expect their numbers to improve further.

I've been a Casey critic most times, but I like how he's been managing the lineups this year. It feels very deliberate in the way it has been primarily about defining roles and developing chemistry, but it also allows him to protect his starter minutes more. I give him a lot of credit for letting the second unit play through their early chemistry problems until they started to get on the same page.

Yeah, we don't have all of our possible lineups going yet, but now that everybody is starting to get comfortable, Casey can start working on those situational lineups more. And yeah, bench + Lowry and bench + DeRozan units are part of those. But through the limited sample-size, those units have struggled thus far, so it's not a case of simply dropping one of those guys in and keeping the offensive intensity high. The Vasquez, Williams, DeRozan, J.Johnson, Hansbrough lineup, which is the most used of the type that you're talking about, has struggled to create offence. And it's a potentially good lineup that I'd like to see used from time-to-time, but it's going to be a work in progress, as will other small-ball, situational defense, situational scoring lineups.

(Numbers from here: http://www.82games.com/1415/1415TOR2.HTM)

[ogi]

Unlike most here, I'm actually a fan of the two line approach early in the season. Getting these bench guys guys going together, getting them confident, getting them understanding what their primary roles need to be, all of that is more important early in the season than wins (but fortunately it's not come at the cost of wins). And already you're seeing the benefit of that. First few games, the all-bench lineup struggled. Now, it's coming in and building on what the starters have done. I don't think that would have happened if the second-unit was in a 'pass to DeRozan and let him create offense' mode.

Through a limited sample size, the Vasquez, Williams, J.Johnson, Patterson, Hansbrough lineup has a +.07 in their net offensive/defensive ratings. (Compared to a ridiculous, whopping +.40 for the starters). That's still decent for a bench, especially when you consider that they looked awful the first three games but have found their stride of late, so I'd expect their numbers to improve further.

I've been a Casey critic most times, but I like how he's been managing the lineups this year. It feels very deliberate in the way it has been primarily about defining roles and developing chemistry, but it also allows him to protect his starter minutes more. I give him a lot of credit for letting the second unit play through their early chemistry problems until they started to get on the same page.

Yeah, we don't have all of our possible lineups going yet, but now that everybody is starting to get comfortable, Casey can start working on those situational lineups more. And yeah, bench + Lowry and bench + DeRozan units are part of those. But through the limited sample-size, those units have struggled thus far, so it's not a case of simply dropping one of those guys in and keeping the offensive intensity high. The Vasquez, Williams, DeRozan, J.Johnson, Hansbrough lineup, which is the most used of the type that you're talking about, has struggled to create offence. And it's a potentially good lineup that I'd like to see used from time-to-time, but it's going to be a work in progress, as will other small-ball, situational defense, situational scoring lineups.

(Numbers from here: http://www.82games.com/1415/1415TOR2.HTM)

The main problem I have with the two lineup approach is that you're getting the bench guys to gel with each other, but come playoff time when rotations are shortened we won't expect to see this all bench lineup at all, so what's really the point of them gelling together? It can't be solely for the reason to rest the starters because that can be done without using two lines. So while it is kind of cool to see that we do have more or less two full functional lineups that can compete in the nba, I just don't see the point of it.

[WhatRhymesWithCash]

Well if casey is using this lineup frequently it means he may use this lineup in the playoffs if the lineup plays well overall. So whether or not the hockey lineup strategy is a good thing remains to be seen. It could propel us in the playoffs in a similar way to the spurs' playoff runs, or it could be our downfall.

[yabadabayolo]

Well if casey is using this lineup frequently it means he may use this lineup in the playoffs if the lineup plays well overall. So whether or not the hockey lineup strategy is a good thing remains to be seen. It could propel us in the playoffs in a similar way to the spurs' playoff runs, or it could be our downfall.

A 7-1 record kinda proves it's a good thing though. If it weren't for that bench unit today, we lose ugly to Orlando

[YoungGunRaptor]

Its a long season. I think that we will see tighter rotations and variations in the lineups (i.e., seeing a gradual immersion of bench players onto the court versus a hockey rotation). We are only in the 3rd week of the season, and I think that other than making and preparing for the playoffs, the number one goal for the team should be to remain healthy.

Last season, Lowry, Derozan and Amir played very heavy minutes all season long. Bringing in the Sacramento Raptors helped but even then, many of the Raptors wins last season required excruciating amounts of effort on a nightly basis. How many comeback games did the Raptors win and/or lose last season? Too many to count. I think that if we can have a healthy roster come playoff time, then we will be primed for a deep playoff run. Remember, Amir and Lowry were both banged up in the postseason. Despite that, they played very well. Imagine how well they would play if they were both 100% healthy?

Until then, having this depth helps immensely. Tonights win vs. the Magic was largely due to the bench shift coming in and taking care of business on both ends of the floor.

Come the end of the season, Im sure Casey will tighten up the rotation minutes, but until then, the focus should be on getting to the postseason, and on getting there in a healthy manner.

[mjt20mik]

I'm totally cool with the rotation he has going on now. Demar and Kyle are averaging 33 minutes per game which is fine to me. I mean of course that may go up (depending on how the season goes), but anywhere from 30-35 per game is fine.

[Mediumcore]

I just wanted to comment on the 7-1 record. I think it's great they are beating the teams they should, but I can't get excited about it until they play and beat playoff bound teams. I want to see how well they play against teams like Charlotte, Chicago, etc. For me, this has been an extended preseason with the Miami loss being the only real competition.

Thursdays game should be interesting if Rose is playing.

[Nilanka]

When/if Jonas gets his act together, I think we'll see a lot less of Hansbrough.

[KeonClark]

I just wanted to comment on the 7-1 record. I think it's great they are beating the teams they should, but I can't get excited about it until they play and beat playoff bound teams. I want to see how well they play against teams like Charlotte, Chicago, etc. For me, this has been an extended preseason with the Miami loss being the only real competition.

Thursdays game should be interesting if Rose is playing.

Its like everybody forgot about our completely professional, dominant beat down of Washington.

[mjt20mik]

Its like everybody forgot about our completely professional, dominant beat down of Washington.

One game without Beal. I mean not to discredit the win, but I wanna see how we do against a contender.

[Nilanka]

Its like everybody forgot about our completely professional, dominant beat down of Washington.

One game without Beal. I mean not to discredit the win, but I wanna see how we do against a contender.

Ya, was going to say the same thing. Washington will surely put an asterisk beside that game since Beal was out.