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Game 16: Mountain Edition. Toronto Raptors @ Utah Jazz. November 18, 2021. SN. 9:00pm EST 7pm Mountain.

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  • Demographic Shift wrote: View Post

    I agree he does have to learn to play with better players... I am not as far along the path as golden is on his take that learing to play with better players might be a rebuke to the rookie to know his place....but for sure rookies are at the bottom of the pecking order unless you are Lebron James or Connor McDavid.
    Scottie has always been the best player on his team for a while... by a wide margin.
    How-evah
    As you move up the pyramid the talent gap narrows considerably and you just can't do it all by yourself.
    You have to trust that the other guys will be at the right spot or moving to it when Barnes runs out of room or time. As Scottie learns to make use of the better players on the floor... the floor is going to get "bigger" and open up more options for him. Our half court offense which is currently wretched will improve as Barnes does
    If he doesn't figure it out the floor will remain "smaller." and the raps climb back up the contender ladder will remain slow.
    that's not true. he played with cade cunningham and day'ron sharpe in high school, with cade, mobley, and the jalen's on junior national teams, and came off the bench his lone year in college. he's never been a guy to try to do it all himself.

    one of the things he's going to have to overcome if he's going to be the player everyone here eventually wants him to be is his natural inclination to defer so often. yes there are times he's not getting the ball in transition or in the halfcourt where he has an apparent advantage. but as others have noted he's also been pretty passive at times, content to just move the ball along when he has an opportunity to attack. i definitely don't see it as him just being "frozen out of the offence."

    there was a great anecdote by mike schmitz on zach lowe's podcast a few weeks ago talking about some camp or basketball academy or something scottie was attending where the players were asked to visualize themselves scroing 25 points in a game and how they would go about doing so, and scottie couldn't handle it. it broke his brain. he asked if he could include assists.

    he's made great strides towards upping his aggression already this season. but people need to slow down on wanting to just completely hand him the reigns and trade everyone older than gary trent. he's developing just fine as noted by others.

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    • KeonClark wrote: View Post

      This post is full parody and sarcasm, right?
      nothing really shocks me on these boards but the sheer negativity reading through recent game threads is mildly surprising. i'm not sure what people's expectations were for this season.

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      • chris wrote: View Post

        nothing really shocks me on these boards but the sheer negativity reading through recent game threads is mildly surprising. i'm not sure what people's expectations were for this season.
        People thought they were top 5 to top 8 in the East.
        Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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        • chris wrote: View Post

          nothing really shocks me on these boards but the sheer negativity reading through recent game threads is mildly surprising. i'm not sure what people's expectations were for this season.
          I tend to read less after a loss or during a losing streak.

          This was a tough stretch in the schedule, and it’s going to take some time for this team to hit a stride. I think the talent is there to be a 5-8 team, we just need a healthy roster and to mesh.

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          • Bulls, Bucks, Nets, Heat are better than us. All the other teams we can beat.

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            • To me there are some clear tiers among our players.

              FVV

              OG
              GTJ

              Siakam (should be in the same tier as FVV once back in game shape, but no lower than the second tier)

              Scottie
              Banton
              Birch

              Everyone else.

              Freddy is clearly at another level. When he's in he's pushing the pace and controlling the pace on both ends. It's noticeable when he sits and both the offense and defense falls off.

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              • Freddie has improved his shot selection over this season. He’s not diving into a crowded key and trying to get his shot up. That was my biggest frustration with him. I think he’s trying to get guys involved, he’s keeping his dribble alive in the key and he’s improved his mid range. There’s not many reasons to be upset with his play.

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                • chris wrote: View Post

                  that's not true. he played with cade cunningham and day'ron sharpe in high school, with cade, mobley, and the jalen's on junior national teams, and came off the bench his lone year in college. he's never been a guy to try to do it all himself.

                  one of the things he's going to have to overcome if he's going to be the player everyone here eventually wants him to be is his natural inclination to defer so often. yes there are times he's not getting the ball in transition or in the halfcourt where he has an apparent advantage. but as others have noted he's also been pretty passive at times, content to just move the ball along when he has an opportunity to attack. i definitely don't see it as him just being "frozen out of the offence."

                  there was a great anecdote by mike schmitz on zach lowe's podcast a few weeks ago talking about some camp or basketball academy or something scottie was attending where the players were asked to visualize themselves scroing 25 points in a game and how they would go about doing so, and scottie couldn't handle it. it broke his brain. he asked if he could include assists.

                  he's made great strides towards upping his aggression already this season. but people need to slow down on wanting to just completely hand him the reigns and trade everyone older than gary trent. he's developing just fine as noted by others.
                  I saw that Lowe eval. of Scottie ... cute ... I hope that Scottie never loses that urge to distribute the ball to his team. That in my view is the essence of team play, sharing, hopefully getting the optimum shot ... and of course pleasant viewing. It seems to me he is supremely confident in his many abilities (physical and cognitive) to influence a positive outcome anytime he has the ball ... whether he shoots or passes. He prefers to pass. That is why all of his mates on those national teams loved him ... Cade, Mobley etc.

                  They should let him nurture/use this rare skill in todays NBA. CP & Nash (immediately come to mind) both have this inclination but they are of the classic point guard ilk. Scottie is different and he is a "big". Hope they don't force him. I am afraid that passiveness you noticed maybe his unhappiness at the state of play (breakdown) at the time and that he did not have the ball ... not to score himself but to create.

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                  • saints91 wrote: View Post
                    Freddie has improved his shot selection over this season. He’s not diving into a crowded key and trying to get his shot up. That was my biggest frustration with him. I think he’s trying to get guys involved, he’s keeping his dribble alive in the key and he’s improved his mid range. There’s not many reasons to be upset with his play.
                    His decision making has gotten a lot better. That was the most frustrating thing about him and why I questioned if he could be the lead guard. He drove head down against players much taller than him and threw up a shot pretty often throughout his career, he has toned that down this season.

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                    • A.I wrote: View Post

                      His decision making has gotten a lot better. That was the most frustrating thing about him and why I questioned if he could be the lead guard. He drove head down against players much taller than him and threw up a shot pretty often throughout his career, he has toned that down this season.
                      Outside of Raps fan forums, its pretty consensus by and large Fred is having a fantastic season. Raptors fans have a weird thing with FVV.
                      9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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                      • MixxAOR wrote: View Post

                        People thought they were top 5 to top 8 in the East.
                        I was expecting a development season, but l also think we could be 5-8 in the East if we weren’t playing such an extremely aggressive gambling & energy intensive defensive scheme. That’s self inflicted. The East is pretty mediocre, tbh.

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                        • KeonClark wrote: View Post

                          Outside of Raps fan forums, its pretty consensus by and large Fred is having a fantastic season. Raptors fans have a weird thing with FVV.
                          FVV is playing well. There is still some Bad Fred but he's definitely taken a step forward this season in terms of his all-court game. It hasn't translated as a huge jump in his numbers but it's noticeable to me.

                          FVV is not the problem. The lack of productivity from the bench (we can argue about why), total mess of a defense and the offense playing in mud for long stretches are all bigger problems. Fred can't fix that stuff.

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                          • Question is what changed with the defense? We started out pretty well defensively and it fell off significantly the last few games so the ability to defend is still there. It started when Pascal came back but I doubt he is the problem.

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                            • A.I wrote: View Post

                              Scottie is averaging 16 and 8, has surpassed any expectations people had of him by a lot. His development is more than fine. He isn't gonna average 25 a game with the ball more. I see Scottie being a bit passive more than anything, probably still getting comfortable and his confidence isn't there yet where he say give me the ball and get out off my way, he is a rookie after all. There are many times where Scottie gets the ball but passes it out instead of either attacking or getting the pass to the open guy.

                              Whether there is a pecking order or not, Nurse openly said he wants Scottie to take more shots, 3 to 4 three pointers a game and be aggressive. Its up to Scottie to get there.
                              Barnes has exceeded all expectations. He been great.

                              As for passivity, I don't know. Maybe. When I watch I see a guy with the ball wanting his teammates to 'read and react' and they mostly just stand around and stare at him from the three point line waiting for him to go one-on-one cause that's what they all do. That's not his game. If you're cutting, moving, setting screens off ball, etc. he will find you but the Raps don't do much of that. Barnes will attack when the situation presents itself but he won't force things, which may look passive in an offense where almost everything is guys forcing up shots.

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                              • In one of the scrums I saw Boucher and FVV barking at each other, as Boucher walked away FVV made the "all talk" motion with his hands.

                                I wonder if there is some frustration in the locker room.

                                A bunch of young guys that are doing better than predicted. Injuries to some key players. A guy like Boucher, that has grown up in our system, may have reached his ceiling and is coming to that realization. A guy like Dragic is just siting on the bench. Other than FVV, OG and Pascal no one hade homes in Toronto prior to this season(who knows if those guys stayed in their old homes). A tough start to the season schedule. Kyle leaving. There is a bunch against the team, hopefully the can put it all together.

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