Game Nineteen - Raptors at Grizzlies - Wed. Nov. 24th 8:00pm on TSN

[inthepaint]

Birch is and always has been an elite offensive rebounder.

Birch averages 2 offensive rebounds over his 6 year career as a centre. If that's elite then a lot of players are.

[Primer]

Birch averages 2 offensive rebounds over his 6 year career as a centre. If that's elite then a lot of players are.

I feel like you are aware of the stats that are based on minutes and not raw per game. He's an elite %OReb and always has been. Averaging 2 offensive rebounds in 16.5 minutes is really fucking good. He's averaging 5 offensive rebounds per 36 in Toronto which is the definition of elite. He's 10th in the entire NBA per game this season despite very limited minutes. Would love to hear your insane spin on how he's not an elite offensive rebounder.

[inthepaint]

I feel like you are aware of the stats that are based on minutes and not raw per game. He's an elite %OReb and always has been. Averaging 2 offensive rebounds in 16.5 minutes is really fucking good. He's averaging 5 offensive rebounds per 36 in Toronto which is the definition of elite. He's 10th in the entire NBA per game this season despite very limited minutes. Would love to hear your insane spin on how he's not an elite offensive rebounder.

Meh. Per 36 stats are skewed, especially, like you say, in limited minutes. Sample size this season is also very small. Elite offensive rebounders don't get waived at age 28. He's not bad though; certainly a step up from Baynes/Gillespie. Personally, I just save the term "elite" for very limited cases; looks like you and I just use it differently, that's all.

[DanH]

Meh. Per 36 stats are skewed, especially, like you say, in limited minutes. Sample size this season is also very small. Elite offensive rebounders don't get waived at age 28. He's not bad though; certainly a step up from Baynes/Gillespie. Personally, I just save the term "elite" for very limited cases; looks like you and I just use it differently, that's all.

Top 10 out of 450 players isn't elite?

[Primer]

Meh. Per 36 stats are skewed, especially, like you say, in limited minutes. Sample size this season is also very small. Elite offensive rebounders don't get waived at age 28. He's not bad though; certainly a step up from Baynes/Gillespie. Personally, I just save the term "elite" for very limited cases; looks like you and I just use it differently, that's all.

Birch is 10th in the entire NBA for OReb per game despite playing only 22 minutes per game. Which is less minutes than everyone ranked above him.

He ranked 17th in the NBA last season while also playing only 22 minutes per game, which was less than everyone above him except Dwight Howard.

This all started with you saying Birch isn't a particularly good rebounder. I think I've shown he clearly is, especially offensive rebounding.

[The Claw Reborn]

Grizzlies didn’t do much damage from three … only made 9 of 29

and Taylor Jenkins played more ISO heavy plays, concentrating more to the middle and didn’t spread out which played into the hands of Nick Nurse’s defensive scheme….

yet Ja Morant had 9 assists….this kid is for real

[inthepaint]

Birch is 10th in the entire NBA for OReb per game despite playing only 22 minutes per game. Which is less minutes than everyone ranked above him.

He ranked 17th in the NBA last season while also playing only 22 minutes per game, which was less than everyone above him except Dwight Howard.

This all started with you saying Birch isn't a particularly good rebounder. I think I've shown he clearly is, especially offensive rebounding.

The limited minutes is what skews things. A per 36 stat is not the same as playing actual 36 minutes; when you're actually on the floor that long you have to contend with things like your number of fouls, physical/mental exertion that comes with being on the floor longer, as well as the tendency of opposing players adjusting to your game on both ends of the floor.

if he's actually on the floor for 36 minutes and grabbing 5 offensive boards like you indicated, over the course of a whole season, yeah i'll call him elite at that. If he's coming in for fewer minutes with fresh legs and no fouls, grabbing a couple (some of which maybe out of his own miss) and then we multiply that to get to the per36 minutes, that's not quite the same thing. Also, overall sample is ideally larger; he played with us while we were tanking, with no other C to speak of, then this season which is still just beginning, and he was out for a good part of it.

Of course for that to happen he has to earn his way into more minutes, so perhaps the broader question here should be how come an elite rebounder (rebounding being one of the key skills in a Centre) is playing relatively little (and got waived at 28). Also, did not say he wasn't good, said he wasn't particularly stellar. Stellar to me is a guy sustaining game-changing production on some fundamental area, over longer minutes, on good teams, against starter quality opposition. Actually, considering he's short for a C I think he's a pretty good rebounder.

[Primer]

The limited minutes is what skews things. A per 36 stat is not the same as playing actual 36 minutes; when you're actually on the floor that long you have to contend with things like your number of fouls, physical/mental exertion that comes with being on the floor longer, as well as the tendency of opposing players adjusting to your game on both ends of the floor.

if he's actually on the floor for 36 minutes and grabbing 5 offensive boards like you indicated, yeah i'll call him elite at that. If he's coming in for fewer minutes with fresh legs and no fouls, grabbing a couple (some of which maybe out of his own miss) and then we multiply that to get to the per36 minutes, that's not quite the same thing.

Of course for that to happen he has to earn his way into more minutes, so perhaps the broader question here should be how come a an elite rebounder (rebounding being one of the key skills in a Centre) is playing relatively little (and got waived at 28). Also, did not say he wasn't good, said he wasn't particularly stellar. Stellar to me is a guy sustaining game-changing production on some fundamental area, over longer minutes, on good teams, against starter quality opposition. Actually, considering he's short for a C I think he's a pretty good rebounder.

I've been using per game the past several posts. Not per 36. He is 10th in the NBA PER GAME, despite playing less minutes per game than everyone above him. He was 17th in the NBA PER GAME last season, despite playing less minutes than everyone above him except Dwight Howard.

[inthepaint]

I've been using per game the past several posts. Not per 36. He is 10th in the NBA PER GAME, despite playing less minutes per game than everyone above him. He was 17th in the NBA PER GAME last season, despite playing less minutes than everyone above him except Dwight Howard.

I feel like you are aware of the stats that are based on minutes and not raw per game. He's an elite %OReb and always has been. Averaging 2 offensive rebounds in 16.5 minutes is really fucking good. He's averaging 5 offensive rebounds per 36 in Toronto which is the definition of elite.

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[Primer]

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Sorry man you're not gonna win this one. You conveniently cut off the rest of my post above where I give the per game stats, which is quite laughable, like why remove the last 2 sentences from that quote? I made another post right after that which you didn't quote because it's entirely about per game stats. He's an elite per game offensive rebounder. You can't argue it hence you just ignoring those posts exist.

[inthepaint]

Sorry man you're not gonna win this one. You conveniently cut off the rest of my post above where I give the per game stats, which is quite laughable, like why remove the last 2 sentences from that quote? I made another post right after that which you didn't quote because it's entirely about per game stats. He's an elite per game offensive rebounder. You can't argue it hence you just ignoring those posts exist.

Per game Birch averages 2 offensive boards, much like a ton of guys in the league. That was my original post. Then you quoted the per 36 stat i highlighted here, which we know is skewed for guys playing fewer minutes, and you went back to per game. Either way we slice it I see nothing elite.

When he's out there actually playing 28+ minutes and grabbing 4 or 5 offensive boards per game on a good team (over the course of a whole year and not on a small sample that also includes tanking games), I'll call him elite. Till then he's a good fundamental rebounder, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can have your opinion and I can have mine though, I'm not set out to change yours, plus this is now an old game thread I'm not gonna be bumping on a minor point like this (I'm not even saying the guy is a bad rebounder, just nothing particularly stellar)

[DanH]

Per game Birch averages 2 offensive boards, much like a ton of guys in the league. That was my original post. Then you quoted the per 36 stat i highlighted here, which we know is skewed for guys playing fewer minutes, and you went back to per game. Either way we slice it I see nothing elite.

When he's out there actually playing 28+ minutes and grabbing 4 or 5 offensive boards per game on a good team (over the course of a whole year and not on a small sample that also includes tanking games), I'll call him elite. Till then he's a good fundamental rebounder, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can have your opinion and I can have mine though, I'm not set out to change yours, plus this is now an old game thread I'm not gonna be bumping on a minor point like this (I'm not even saying the guy is a bad rebounder, just nothing particularly stellar)

Khem Birch averages 3.2 offensive boards per game this year. That is 6th in the league.

Want to take a guess how many players in the entire league are grabbing 4 or 5 offensive boards per game this year, never mind whether they play 28 minutes or are on a good team?

Literally zero. Zero elite offensive rebounders in the entire league!

[GOLDBLUM]

Khem Birch averages 3.2 offensive boards per game this year. That is 6th in the league.

Want to take a guess how many players in the entire league are grabbing 4 or 5 offensive boards per game this year, never mind whether they play 28 minutes or are on a good team?

Literally zero. Zero elite offensive rebounders in the entire league!

lol

[inthepaint]

Khem Birch averages 3.2 offensive boards per game this year. That is 6th in the league.

Want to take a guess how many players in the entire league are grabbing 4 or 5 offensive boards per game this year, never mind whether they play 28 minutes or are on a good team?

Literally zero. Zero elite offensive rebounders in the entire league!

He only played 15 games this year though, so the sample is small. On his 6 year career he averages 2.1. There's a good number of guys doing that over their careers. And you're right, 4 or 5 is probably too much, 2.1 there's a bunch of guys doing, so if he can sustain 3+ for a an actual full season that'll separate him from the pack. Gotta play more for us to see.

[DanH]

He only played 15 games this year though, so the sample is small. On his 6 year career he averages 2.1. There's a good number of guys doing that over their careers. And you're right, 4 or 5 is probably too much, 2.1 there's a bunch of guys doing, so if he can sustain 3+ for a an actual full season that'll separate him from the pack. Gotta play more for us to see.

He also played 19 games at the end of last year at 3 offensive boards per game, if that helps with the sample.

Yes, I agree, if we include his early career where he was playing 12 minutes a night he definitely averages fewer offensive boards!

His offensive boards per-36 rate has essentially been unchanged since he first stepped foot on an NBA court even with big changes in minutes played each year (4.4, 4.4, 3.6, 4.1, 5.0). So long as he keeps playing real minutes, there is absolutely no reason to expect his rebounding to dip significantly.