Grange lacks an original thought (JV spin)

[chico]

I see fair enough but why was derozan on the court in the 4th tho?
He wasn't doing anything productive for the raptors.

I was actually wishing they would put JV in for DD, keeping JJ at the SF spot, to improve the rebounding and perimeter defense.

DeMar went in with 7:30 to go, to replace Lou Williams. They had been stagnant for a while, hanging around the 14-16 pt deficit mark, and down 16 at the time.

Over the next 2:21:
- Ross hits a 3
- PPat gets blocked,
- DeMar misses a 21 footer
- Ross misses a 3 pointer
- DeMar misses a 11 footer (fuck he had a horrid shooting night)

From 5:09 on, still down 16, DeMar doesn't take another shot until 0:30, and they're FTs

But he's certainly involved in facilitating on offense, and is part of the team defense that brings the team to down only 5, with 1:19 to go.

Why was he in? That lineup, in a team game, brought the team back to a serious fighting chance.

The failure to come back further from there had nothing to do with DeMar's individual play. It went:

- Ross's 3 pt foul on Dunleavy with the clock running out
- Lowry misses 25 footer
- Lowry misses 9 footer
- Amir steals from Gasol on D end
- Amir gets blocked by Gasol

Now there's 30 seconds left and their down 7. DeMar draws a foul from Gasol, sinks his 2 FTs to bring it to a 5 pt game again. From there, it's the foul game, with Lowry missing 1 of 2, and Ross missing 2 3 pointers and Johnson missing another 3 pointer.

In what sense did DeMar hurt them in the 4th (that lineup got it to 5 twice), and where in there would JV have helped more? None of the Bulls bigs had scored the entire time, and the team came back almost all the way.

[chico]

Ugh, with these duplicates.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

In what sense did DeMar hurt them in the 4th (that lineup got it to 5 twice), and where in there would JV have helped more? None of the Bulls bigs had scored the entire time, and the team came back almost all the way.

For me, it wasn't so much that DeRozan was hurting the team, but just that he was having an off night and really wasn't doing a whole lot to help them - shooting was off and defense wasn't great.

Lowry was handling the ball and his dribble-penetration was effective at starting ball movement.

JJ & Ross on the wings would have provided great perimeter/point-of-attack defense (I really liked the look of the Lowry/Ross/JJ threesome defensively). Ross had a great shooting stroke going and JJ was fantastic playing off the ball all night.

Amir was battling, but the Raps could have benefited at both ends from additional help on the boards, which JV would have provided. Offensively, it could have meant more 2nd chance opportunities, tip-backs, drawing fouls while cleaning up the garbage, and another big body to set picks and play P&R with Lowry. Defensively, it would have helped the Raptors get the rebounds - during their comeback in the 4th they gave up a bunch of rebounds and extra possessions, because Amir/JJ were overmatched by the Bulls' bigs (they weren't scoring, but they were rebounding).

I just thought subbing JV for DeRozan would have helped address the most glaring weakness, without really hurting the team in any way, especially in light of DeRozan having such an off night.

[chico]

For me, it wasn't so much that DeRozan was hurting the team, but just that he was having an off night and really wasn't doing a whole lot to help them - shooting was off and defense wasn't great.

Lowry was handling the ball and his dribble-penetration was effective at starting ball movement.

JJ & Ross on the wings would have provided great perimeter/point-of-attack defense (I really liked the look of the Lowry/Ross/JJ threesome defensively). Ross had a great shooting stroke going and JJ was fantastic playing off the ball all night.

Amir was battling, but the Raps could have benefited at both ends from additional help on the boards, which JV would have provided. Offensively, it could have meant more 2nd chance opportunities, tip-backs, drawing fouls while cleaning up the garbage, and another big body to set picks and play P&R with Lowry. Defensively, it would have helped the Raptors get the rebounds - during their comeback in the 4th they gave up a bunch of rebounds and extra possessions, because Amir/JJ were overmatched by the Bulls' bigs (they weren't scoring, but they were rebounding).

I just thought subbing JV for DeRozan would have helped address the most glaring weakness, without really hurting the team in any way, especially in light of DeRozan having such an off night.

I don't know that the TEAM play, with JV in instead of DeMar, could have done any better than make up 11 points in 6 minutes, while the Bulls bigs didn't sniff a point, unless you feel JV would have made them perfect. That was quite a surprise comeback, and to say it would have been better if.............., is not something we could agree on, so agree to disagree.

[Scraptor]

Lewenberg with more spin:

"We're not in the development stage," [Casey] rightly pointed out. "We're in the winning stage. So that's the hard thing right now."

http://www.tsn.ca/lewenberg-raptors-...iunas-1.135369

The false premise here is that development and winning are mutually exclusive. It's just not true.

With Valanciunas on the floor this year, the Raptors are giving up 106.9 points per 100 possessions, which would rank them 21st in the NBA, tied with Minnesota and New Orleans. Without him, they're allowing just 95.3, which would be the best defensive rating in the league.

I'm assuming these numbers are from before yesterday's game. Now they're 110.1 vs 98.6 per bbref for Val. But you know what? He's not the only one.

Lowry is 108.3 vs 92.2.
DeMar is 107.5 vs 94.1.
Ross is 108.0 vs 97.6.

The only starter who looks good here is Amir, 104.1 vs 103.1.

The main reason the bench looks so good is because we're deep and because JJ is crushing it... 92.4 vs 111.5.

So if Lewenberg had done some more digging, he would have seen that Val isn't some kind of anomaly. Further, opponents' FG% at the rim? Amir is first by far, but Val is still better than Patterson and Hansbrough amongst our bigs.

And Net Total Rebounding% is -13.8 for Patman and +10.2 for Val. But Val gets subbed out for Pat to go up against Noah and Gasol. I mean come on now.

[MixxAOR]

The false premise here is that development and winning are mutually exclusive. It's just not true.

I don't know. I think it's true you do sacrifice some games for sake of development. Shit we're losing games because we're playing Demar and developing his mid range game LMAO

[mcHAPPY]

Lewenberg with more spin:



http://www.tsn.ca/lewenberg-raptors-...iunas-1.135369

The false premise here is that development and winning are mutually exclusive. It's just not true.



I'm assuming these numbers are from before yesterday's game. Now they're 110.1 vs 98.6 per bbref for Val. But you know what? He's not the only one.

Lowry is 108.3 vs 92.2.
DeMar is 107.5 vs 94.1.
Ross is 108.0 vs 97.6.

The only starter who looks good here is Amir, 104.1 vs 103.1.

The main reason the bench looks so good is because we're deep and because JJ is crushing it... 92.4 vs 111.5.

So if Lewenberg had done some more digging, he would have seen that Val isn't some kind of anomaly. Further, opponents' FG% at the rim? Amir is first by far, but Val is still better than Patterson and Hansbrough amongst our bigs.

And Net Total Rebounding% is -13.8 for Patman and +10.2 for Val. But Val gets subbed out for Pat to go up against Noah and Gasol. I mean come on now.

What a crock.

"It has nothing to do with his growth," Casey told TSN.ca and the Toronto Sun following a Friday afternoon practice session at the Air Canada Centre. "That's why I get perturbed when people say, 'Well, how come Jonas isn't...?' No!"

"Jonas is where he needs to be right now."

This is not a new or foreign approach Casey and the Raptors coaching staff are taking with their young centre. They have been preaching patience since he arrived in Toronto at the start of the 2012-13 campaign.

"He's a young kid," the Raptors coach continued. "He's a young kid. His curse is; two years ago when he first came in and everybody said he was the second coming. As a staff, we expect that he's going to grow at the right time, at the right place. He's going to be there, that's why I'm happy he's ours. But you can't rush the process."

At one point they may have and it's hard to blame them given the situation they found themselves in. He was thrown into the fire as rookie, starting 57 of the 62 games he appeared in, for a losing club. Now, as team expectations have changed, Casey faces a different challenge.

"We're not in the development stage," he rightly pointed out. "We're in the winning stage. So that's the hard thing right now."

You can't rush the process? That is a cop out just like Lewenburg's cherry picked stats.

These quotes are all the same now for 3 years. Just like, "it is a pre season game....." "it is only November....." "there are 82 games to play....."

[Balls of Steel]

JV simply hasn't played well enough to warrant the trust of the coach to stay / finish games.

[golden]

For me, it wasn't so much that DeRozan was hurting the team, but just that he was having an off night and really wasn't doing a whole lot to help them - shooting was off and defense wasn't great.

Lowry was handling the ball and his dribble-penetration was effective at starting ball movement.

JJ & Ross on the wings would have provided great perimeter/point-of-attack defense (I really liked the look of the Lowry/Ross/JJ threesome defensively). Ross had a great shooting stroke going and JJ was fantastic playing off the ball all night.

Amir was battling, but the Raps could have benefited at both ends from additional help on the boards, which JV would have provided. Offensively, it could have meant more 2nd chance opportunities, tip-backs, drawing fouls while cleaning up the garbage, and another big body to set picks and play P&R with Lowry. Defensively, it would have helped the Raptors get the rebounds - during their comeback in the 4th they gave up a bunch of rebounds and extra possessions, because Amir/JJ were overmatched by the Bulls' bigs (they weren't scoring, but they were rebounding).

I just thought subbing JV for DeRozan would have helped address the most glaring weakness, without really hurting the team in any way, especially in light of DeRozan having such an off night.

Was thinking exactly the same thing. When you're trying to come back, of course you need to score, but you also need stops - duh. A lineup of Lowry/Ross/JJ/2Pat/JV is a nice balance of offense and defense, and athletic enough to help, recover and rotate in case you need to double-team JV's man (Pau, in this case).

[golden]

I don't know that the TEAM play, with JV in instead of DeMar, could have done any better than make up 11 points in 6 minutes, while the Bulls bigs didn't sniff a point, unless you feel JV would have made them perfect. That was quite a surprise comeback, and to say it would have been better if.............., is not something we could agree on, so agree to disagree.

A faux comeback, actually. In the NBA, teams winning big almost always take their foot of the gas and let the trailing team get closer. At no point, did this really feel like one of those epic Raps comebacks from last year.

[DanH]

The issue isn't whether JV should have been in at the end of the 4th - once they implemented the press strategy he didn't fit.

But the issue is why he was taken out in the 3rd. And given that he was out in the 3rd, why he didn't start the 4th.

[KHD]

Lewenberg with more spin:



http://www.tsn.ca/lewenberg-raptors-...iunas-1.135369

The false premise here is that development and winning are mutually exclusive. It's just not true.



I'm assuming these numbers are from before yesterday's game. Now they're 110.1 vs 98.6 per bbref for Val. But you know what? He's not the only one.

Lowry is 108.3 vs 92.2.
DeMar is 107.5 vs 94.1.
Ross is 108.0 vs 97.6.

The only starter who looks good here is Amir, 104.1 vs 103.1.

The main reason the bench looks so good is because we're deep and because JJ is crushing it... 92.4 vs 111.5.

So if Lewenberg had done some more digging, he would have seen that Val isn't some kind of anomaly. Further, opponents' FG% at the rim? Amir is first by far, but Val is still better than Patterson and Hansbrough amongst our bigs.

And Net Total Rebounding% is -13.8 for Patman and +10.2 for Val. But Val gets subbed out for Pat to go up against Noah and Gasol. I mean come on now.

The only thing I get from these points/100 numbers is that our bench is better than other teams' benches, unless I'm misinterpreting them?

[DanH]

The only thing I get from these points/100 numbers is that our bench is better than other teams' benches, unless I'm misinterpreting them?

That's pretty much it. And other teams' benches are worse at scoring than their starters are.

[chico]

For me, it wasn't so much that DeRozan was hurting the team, but just that he was having an off night and really wasn't doing a whole lot to help them - shooting was off and defense wasn't great.

Lowry was handling the ball and his dribble-penetration was effective at starting ball movement.

JJ & Ross on the wings would have provided great perimeter/point-of-attack defense (I really liked the look of the Lowry/Ross/JJ threesome defensively). Ross had a great shooting stroke going and JJ was fantastic playing off the ball all night.

Amir was battling, but the Raps could have benefited at both ends from additional help on the boards, which JV would have provided. Offensively, it could have meant more 2nd chance opportunities, tip-backs, drawing fouls while cleaning up the garbage, and another big body to set picks and play P&R with Lowry. Defensively, it would have helped the Raptors get the rebounds - during their comeback in the 4th they gave up a bunch of rebounds and extra possessions, because Amir/JJ were overmatched by the Bulls' bigs (they weren't scoring, but they were rebounding).

I just thought subbing JV for DeRozan would have helped address the most glaring weakness, without really hurting the team in any way, especially in light of DeRozan having such an off night.

Was thinking exactly the same thing. When you're trying to come back, of course you need to score, but you also need stops - duh. A lineup of Lowry/Ross/JJ/2Pat/JV is a nice balance of offense and defense, and athletic enough to help, recover and rotate in case you need to double-team JV's man (Pau, in this case).

The issue isn't whether JV should have been in at the end of the 4th - once they implemented the press strategy he didn't fit.

But the issue is why he was taken out in the 3rd. And given that he was out in the 3rd, why he didn't start the 4th.

It's fun to talk of our ideas of what would make a well balanced line-up, but that's easy when you're not actually dealing with the realities of the game itself. All this talk about how JV would have been much better to have in there for rebounding in the 2nd half. If he had played the 2nd half the way he played the first, where he was left in longer (the entire quarter) than any other starter in the 1st quarter, and brought back in only 4 minutes into the 2nd quartetr, there's zero reason to believe that he wouldn't have been kept in. That didn't happen, as a different JV showed up in the 3rd.

The 3rd quarter started with Raps up 7. Over the next 4:23, with Jonas on the floor, the Bulls out rebound the Raps 6-3, with 1 of the Raps being Amir simply recovering a block from his own FGA. You may as well say they were outrebounded 6-2, without a single rebound from Jonas, which is what you guys are saying he could have provided. His only activity was a basket on a DeMar assist, and Noah picking his pocket for a TO, which lead to a 3 pointer by Dunleavy, and being down 2, helped by Gasol making 3 baskets. What value was he providing to start that second half, in rebounds, defense, or anything else? He hadn't rebounded shit, and his man was chewing him up. Something had to give, and he was subbed out for PPat.

Note that the bigs who were eating JVs lunch on the boards and scoring at will (Gasol 6 pts in 4 minutes), only scored
12 of the Bulls 42 pts the rest of the way.

The score went further downhill from there, but nobody can possibly say it would have gone better with JV, who at that point was doing NOTHING that you guys say he could have done better. This wasn't the same Jonas from the first quarter. Hmmm maybe there's a stamina issue with the big guy, and the coach saying his development is a long process isn't a crock?

I do know that the TEAM on the floor at that point managed to stem the tide somewhat. They only gave up another 4 extra points over the next 5.5 minutes, instead of the 9 they gave up over 4.5 minutes. Real evidense is that it was the right move.

Things got out of hand with the bench unit in for the last 2 minutes of the quarter, with most damage done in an 8-0 run, by the PG/wings, assisted greatly by 2 shooting fouls by JJ, and a TO by GV. Down by 14 starting the 4th, the team basically held serve from there, until DeMar came in for Williams with 7:30 to go, down 15.

From there, over the next 6 minutes, that lineup brought the team back to within 5, with 1:19 to go. There is no reason at all to somehow believe that the 4th quarter would have gone better with Jonas in and everybody's favourite whipping boy out. None, and note that during that run, the Raps actually outrebounded the Bulls, while outscoring them by 10, without Jonas. And the coach gets ripped for? Amazing.

[DanH]

Again, JV had a rough 4 minutes. He got benched for the game. Other players can have a rough 30 minutes and never sit. It is ridiculous. I could see pulling JV for a couple minutes to give him a stern talking to. But to not put him back in when the team is absolutely falling apart for the rest of the Q, and not put him in to start the 4th - I see no reason not to get him minutes.