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  • #31
    I'm only sticking to Raptor related content. The rest is a waste of time.

    People so caught up in the personalities. It is not JV versus Casey versus DeRozan versus whoever. It is about basketball. The numbers and eye test are showing the Raptors play better when with a diversified attack. Right now we are witnessing the third part of the trilogy "Ride One Guy, Come Hell or Highwater: The Dwane Casey Story."

    The numbers and watching games show JV is the best rebounder. For all the pooping on his D, I see a pretty good start relative to last season. This is what is so infuriating. It appears JV is doing more of what is wanted from him and instead of being given more leash, he is being pushed farther and farther back in the dog house. It has to be frustrating for the guy.

    The comments about his character, weight, and Wasaga Beach - waste of time. What is known is that he is showing improvements in every area of basketball outside the Raptors. What is known is he can dominate at times. He needs to work on his consistency, no question, but he also needs to be given a stable work environment. 18 first half minutes followed by 4 second half is not stable - especially when you look at the TEAM results.

    Back to the idea of personalities. I wonder how strong DD's fan base is if he isn't posting crazy (but pointless) videos of his handle or stating how much he loves Toronto. All those things are great and endear a lot of fans to him but forget about that - look strictly at his on court product. I've seen flashes of greatness but I remember typing the comments in his second season about the need for consistency, it is the same thing now. And it isn't about putting up consistent numbers. It is about consistently recognizing what is good for the team and what is not. A familiar knock on JV is turnovers - rightfully so - however a bad shot is just as bad and often worse than a turnover as the defense doesn't get a chance to get back or set.

    But that brings me to the larger issue here: Casey. I'm sure he is a good guy. I know he knows more about basketball than me. People have to stop grasping to those arguments. It is all relative. Don't judge Casey to me, judge him to his NBA peers. When I do that, I don't see a good or great coach. I see an average coach at best who's best attributes speak more to his character and work ethic than his basketball knowledge and coaching ability.

    Comment


    • #32
      This thread is a trainwreck.

      As soon as it becomes clear the team is consistently performing under there skill level, or what their skill level should be, you'll see me get on Casey. Until then, can we just enjoy things while they are going well?

      The team is 7-2, yet it seems like 3/4s of the threads and posts the last couple of days have been extremely negative. And it's driving me nuts. I want to enjoy this season. And I may have to leave this forum to do that. I don't want to have to do that.
      That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.

      Comment


      • #33
        Other Scott wrote: View Post
        This thread is a trainwreck.

        As soon as it becomes clear the team is consistently performing under there skill level, or what their skill level should be, you'll see me get on Casey. Until then, can we just enjoy things while they are going well?

        The team is 7-2, yet it seems like 3/4s of the threads and posts the last couple of days have been extremely negative. And it's driving me nuts. I want to enjoy this season. And I may have to leave this forum to do that. I don't want to have to do that.
        Good point.

        Maybe a Mod could take out the trash?

        .....including my post here!

        Comment


        • #34
          I don't understand the argument that professional coaches should be immune to criticism. I may not have 30 years of experience but I can see that Vinny Del Negro is a bad coach. That Mike Brown doesn't have a clue. And what is 30 years of experience if you keep making the same mistakes?

          In Minnesota Casey was criticized for an overreliance on vets. Here we had Ed Davis seeing fewer minutes as a third year, same with Val, and we're not even dressing Bruno or Bebe against historically bad teams like Philly.

          Like I showed in the preseason, Val placed 8th in field goal attempts per game (9th per minute). Those are meaningless games but a great opportunity to give young players reps. Instead Jordan Hamilton and Will Cherry were beating Val in usage.

          To which the response was, It's preseason for heaven sake.

          And then after last night the response is, it's only one game. It's only November. When March comes we'll be fighting for a playoff seed and then it'll be wait till the offseason, wait till next year.

          There is no better time than now. This is Val's third year. In DeMar's third year he got double the shots Val is getting, despite posting a TS% 7 percent lower.

          There is no point in having all this youth and potential if we're not going to nurture it, if we're just going to let it wither on the vine.

          I'm not saying Val is blameless, because he has a responsibility to take full advantage of his opportunities, but he needs to know his role is secure. This pulling him for the last 19 minutes is bullshit.

          Comment


          • #35
            For all the microanalysis of last night's game, nobody that I've seen has pointed out that the first shift, Valanciunas came out and played essentially how he needs to play for this team to be successful, battling hard on defense and on the boards and making smart decisions with the ball. Yeah, he missed a couple shots, but he was doing the things we need him to be doing, really well. And Casey responded by leaving him the longest of any of the starters, not taking him out until about :30 left in the opening quarter. I could be wrong, but I believe that was the longest opening shift that Valanciunas had all season. And it was well-deserved.

            He does the things that Casey asks of him, he gets rewarded with playing time. The 'as soon as he misses a shot or takes a foul, Casey yanks him' narrative is BS. So is the idea that he is in some way ruined. That first shift, he showed that he's still got lots of potential to be the player the Raptors need him to be to be successful. If he plays at that level all game, the Raptors win last night. No question in my mind. Do I agree with Casey leaving him on the bench for nearly the full 4th quarter? No, but the idea that this is in some way 'ruining' Valanciunas ignores the fact that he has, in stretches, played exceptionally effectively. But he fails in the measure of consistency, and that's what Casey is presumably trying to develop in him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Other Scott wrote: View Post
              The team is 7-2, yet it seems like 3/4s of the threads and posts the last couple of days have been extremely negative. And it's driving me nuts. I want to enjoy this season. And I may have to leave this forum to do that. I don't want to have to do that.
              We're Raptors fans. In some weird and sadistic way we're only happy when we're unhappy. I've always been a firm believer in that motto with our fan base. It's unfortunate though.

              Comment


              • #37
                chico wrote: View Post
                A post that has nothing to do with the subject, and is totally personal stabs. I get threatened with banishment for this crap. Do you?



                How was that condescending, pal. Any more than the following? How about the above?
                Keon gets a little time in the "sin bin" for the next week to collect his thoughts. So, carry on .... there's nothing to see here.

                Comment


                • #38
                  mcHAPPY wrote: View Post

                  But that brings me to the larger issue here: Casey. I'm sure he is a good guy. I know he knows more about basketball than me. People have to stop grasping to those arguments. It is all relative. Don't judge Casey to me, judge him to his NBA peers. When I do that, I don't see a good or great coach. I see an average coach at best who's best attributes speak more to his character and work ethic than his basketball knowledge and coaching ability.
                  What seems to be missed is that the contrasting arguments are less about "comparing you to Casey", than they are about trying to point out that you have miniscule knowledge of what's really going on for 99% of Casey's, or any other coach's work. Tough to judge any coach, realistically, against any other coach, realistically, when one has next to zero knowledge of what's actually going on, and what long term plans for a grueling 82 game schedule is.

                  Did Casey get far more out of this team last year than anybody expected? Did that make him a good coach, and did something happen over the summer that made him an idiot, as too many depict him as? Like all NBA coaches, their job isn't about planning game by game, minute by minute, but when playoffs are in sight, it's about getting the team in the best possible health and position, 73 games from now. It's a marathon, man. It's not about being at the top of your game at the start, but at the finish. Was Thibs a bad coach when Philly, the tankiest team in history, pushed them to the edge a few days ago, and again when Boston beat them? Was Pop a bad coach having a 4 game stretch of:

                  - losing to Phx, who got pounded by Utah in their next game?
                  - squeaking out a game vs ATL
                  - getting pounded by HOU
                  - losing to a bunch of kids in NOP

                  Of course not. His sights aren't on a few games now. His sights are on the end game, starting 73 games from now.

                  It's very early in the season, and most teams, including those with the "best coaches", go through struggles at this time. Despite the many struggles, Casey has them at 7-2, yet many are ripping him a new one, based not on some imagined "knowledgeable" comparison to other coaches, but on decisions he's making, about the players he's coaching. You say compare him to other coaches. I wish we could, but none of us has a even a toe to stand on to judge them based on 1% of their job. All we can go by is the team's record over a season, not a sample of 9 games at the beginning. With such little factual knowledge of what he's doing, ripping him a new one when the team is 7-2 seems a little self-indulgent, if not twisted.

                  Some have fun ripping these guys during the game. So be it, part of the fun, but when it's all over, let's not get too full of ourselves.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    chico wrote: View Post
                    What seems to be missed is that the contrasting arguments are less about "comparing you to Casey", than they are about trying to point out that you have miniscule knowledge of what's really going on for 99% of Casey's, or any other coach's work. Tough to judge any coach, realistically, against any other coach, realistically, when one has next to zero knowledge of what's actually going on, and what long term plans for a grueling 82 game schedule is.

                    Did Casey get far more out of this team last year than anybody expected? Did that make him a good coach, and did something happen over the summer that made him an idiot, as too many depict him as? Like all NBA coaches, their job isn't about planning game by game, minute by minute, but when playoffs are in sight, it's about getting the team in the best possible health and position, 73 games from now. It's a marathon, man. It's not about being at the top of your game at the start, but at the finish. Was Thibs a bad coach when Philly, the tankiest team in history, pushed them to the edge a few days ago, and again when Boston beat them? Was Pop a bad coach having a 4 game stretch of:

                    - losing to Phx, who got pounded by Utah in their next game?
                    - squeaking out a game vs ATL
                    - getting pounded by HOU
                    - losing to a bunch of kids in NOP

                    Of course not. His sights aren't on a few games now. His sights are on the end game, starting 73 games from now.

                    It's very early in the season, and most teams, including those with the "best coaches", go through struggles at this time. Despite the many struggles, Casey has them at 7-2, yet many are ripping him a new one, based not on some imagined "knowledgeable" comparison to other coaches, but on decisions he's making, about the players he's coaching. You say compare him to other coaches. I wish we could, but none of us has a even a toe to stand on to judge them based on 1% of their job. All we can go by is the team's record over a season, not a sample of 9 games at the beginning. With such little factual knowledge of what he's doing, ripping him a new one when the team is 7-2 seems a little self-indulgent, if not twisted.

                    Some have fun ripping these guys during the game. So be it, part of the fun, but when it's all over, let's not get too full of ourselves.
                    Very well said Chico.
                    @Chr1st1anL

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      octothorp wrote: View Post
                      For all the microanalysis of last night's game, nobody that I've seen has pointed out that the first shift, Valanciunas came out and played essentially how he needs to play for this team to be successful, battling hard on defense and on the boards and making smart decisions with the ball. Yeah, he missed a couple shots, but he was doing the things we need him to be doing, really well. And Casey responded by leaving him the longest of any of the starters, not taking him out until about :30 left in the opening quarter. I could be wrong, but I believe that was the longest opening shift that Valanciunas had all season. And it was well-deserved.

                      He does the things that Casey asks of him, he gets rewarded with playing time. The 'as soon as he misses a shot or takes a foul, Casey yanks him' narrative is BS. So is the idea that he is in some way ruined. That first shift, he showed that he's still got lots of potential to be the player the Raptors need him to be to be successful. If he plays at that level all game, the Raptors win last night. No question in my mind. Do I agree with Casey leaving him on the bench for nearly the full 4th quarter? No, but the idea that this is in some way 'ruining' Valanciunas ignores the fact that he has, in stretches, played exceptionally effectively. But he fails in the measure of consistency, and that's what Casey is presumably trying to develop in him.
                      Good post and points.

                      He was yanked 4mins into third and didn't return. That is 20 minutes not nearly a full quarter.

                      While I believe you need to be shown the pine and earn your time, you can't expect benching for the rest of the game is going to help.

                      We are witnessing regression and double standards, not improvement and accountability.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Superjudge wrote: View Post
                        I bet Michael Grange knows more than you do.

                        Message board people get caught up in their own vacuums.... just because you think you know, and you say it repeatedly, it doesn't make it right.

                        You get caught up worshipping a GM, but hating a coach. Now there is no time in your world to bother with the fact that both the GM and coach, AND all the assistant coaches meet and discuss and plan EVERYTHING. But hey man, we here in basketball valhalla, we see it as it is.

                        8 Games in, and Casey is destroying JV. I guess he made him fat too. Perhaps he was in Wasaga with him last year as well?

                        Maybe your precious Big man is just average? Maybe he really IS just 22 and you know, he's a dumbass and needs to grow up a bit. Maybe, ad this is a huge one, maybe Casey is a teeny tiny closer to all of it than any of us are.... and I would bett everything that Grange is somewhere in between....

                        I don't mind ripping these guys during games, its fun.... but I find it laughable after the fact when people on messageboards start second guessing an NBA coaches ability to coach a basketball team, short term or long, armed with nothing more than a few stat sites and their own limited basketball experience gained solely from the internet.

                        They ARE coaches.

                        You my friend, are not.
                        Craig, bro, gotta disagree with you on this one. Bryan Colangelo and Jay Triano were a coach-GM combo who also knew more about professional basketball than any of us will ever hope to know and......

                        ...... they bet the long-term future of this franchise on Andrea Bargnani.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                          Good post and points.

                          He was yanked 4mins into third and didn't return. That is 20 minutes not nearly a full quarter.

                          While I believe you need to be shown the pine and earn your time, you can't expect benching for the rest of the game is going to help.

                          We are witnessing regression and double standards, not improvement and accountability.
                          i dont agree with the benching of jonas for 20 mins. but after having a day to indulge what happened. i think the plan was to bring jonas back in at around the 6-7 minute mark in the fourth along with the rest of the starters but jj was just playing really well out there and the small ball linup began to work. so caey tried to ride that to the end of the game

                          pure speculation though
                          I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                            i dont agree with the benching of jonas for 20 mins. but after having a day to indulge what happened. i think the plan was to bring jonas back in at around the 6-7 minute mark in the fourth along with the rest of the starters but jj was just playing really well out there and the small ball linup began to work. so caey tried to ride that to the end of the game

                            pure speculation though
                            I see fair enough but why was derozan on the court in the 4th tho?
                            He wasn't doing anything productive for the raptors.
                            "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              octothorp wrote: View Post
                              For all the microanalysis of last night's game, nobody that I've seen has pointed out that the first shift, Valanciunas came out and played essentially how he needs to play for this team to be successful, battling hard on defense and on the boards and making smart decisions with the ball. Yeah, he missed a couple shots, but he was doing the things we need him to be doing, really well. And Casey responded by leaving him the longest of any of the starters, not taking him out until about :30 left in the opening quarter. I could be wrong, but I believe that was the longest opening shift that Valanciunas had all season. And it was well-deserved.

                              He does the things that Casey asks of him, he gets rewarded with playing time. The 'as soon as he misses a shot or takes a foul, Casey yanks him' narrative is BS. So is the idea that he is in some way ruined. That first shift, he showed that he's still got lots of potential to be the player the Raptors need him to be to be successful. If he plays at that level all game, the Raptors win last night. No question in my mind. Do I agree with Casey leaving him on the bench for nearly the full 4th quarter? No, but the idea that this is in some way 'ruining' Valanciunas ignores the fact that he has, in stretches, played exceptionally effectively. But he fails in the measure of consistency, and that's what Casey is presumably trying to develop in him.

                              This isn't just our collective imagination. Here is a video of Pau's highlights. I'm going to focus on the second and third quarters, because I think we all agree that Val had a strong first quarter.



                              Pau had a great game. In the first half, with 4:31 to go, he scored 13 points.
                              First, he scored on an offensive rebound after a strong contest and block by Val.
                              Then, DeMar lost Butler on a drive, and Val came over to help and contest, so Butler gave it to Pau for the dunk.
                              Next, Amir left Pau to help on a Dunleavy drive, leading to a single Pau made FT.

                              Then Pau schooled Amir for six straight points on three field goals made. Amir even lost Pau for a jumper at the top of the key, and knew he had made a mistake.

                              Watch all of these plays.

                              -----

                              Now, the Bulls scored 12 points against us in the third.

                              Pau scored twice one-on-one against Val down low, but both times Val played challenging D. Pau just made two great shots.

                              Val had one lapse where he left Pau outside the top of the key, just like Amir, but he was looking to help as Butler backed down DeMar deep into the post, and Pau hit a long jumper.

                              The Bulls also scored 4 points off DRose drive/foul/FTs, neither of which were Val's fault.

                              And then when Val got stripped down low, our transition defense lapsed--DeMar was slow in getting back and finding Dunleavy--and Dunleavy hit a three, at which point Val was subbed out for Patterson.

                              ------

                              So in the third Val shows solid effort in his challenges and throws down a dunk with authority, but he has one lapse (like Amir's), and is stripped once. Yet somehow the Bulls' run is his fault, and he's pulled for the rest of the game?

                              It makes even less sense considering Casey brought in Patterson to replace him.

                              ------

                              This isn't the way to build confidence in a young player. Not when guys like Vasquez have five turnovers, when DeMar is shooting crappy shot after shot, when Patterson and Hansbrough are getting eaten alive down low.... and none of them face consequences.

                              Everybody makes mistakes. The difference is that Val is allowed to make fewer of them. Which is asking an almost impossible standard of a third-year player trying to learn to anchor a playoff defense.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                MACK11 wrote: View Post
                                I see fair enough but why was derozan on the court in the 4th tho?
                                He wasn't doing anything productive for the raptors.
                                I was actually wishing they would put JV in for DD, keeping JJ at the SF spot, to improve the rebounding and perimeter defense.

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