Everything 2022 Draft

[Kagemusha]

He does? I don't remember Masai OR Nurse mentioning Trent as part of the core in their press conference a couple of weeks ago. They mentioned Scottie, Pascal, FVV, OG and Precious -- not Trent.

Here's the reality. I've been saying this since the start of last season. Trent will be a FA after next season. He is represented by Klutch. You know he's going to be asking for at least 20m/year. He is NOWHERE near worth that. So what do you do? trade.

Its natural for them to not mention Gary as part of the core coz they haven't locked him up yet.

[Kagemusha]

He doesn't. The Sixers were hunting him the whole series. You're probably going to argue how he's one of the league leaders in steals(I know already). Just because he's one of the league leaders in steals doesn't mean he's a good defender.

Lol.

Dude, that was one series. Against Harden.
Who in this league can really lock Harden up, one on one? A few elite defenders, and no one says Gary is an elite defender.
If 2 steals per game is not good enough for you for someone like Trent, I don't know what you're expecting really

[The Great One]

Dude, that was one series. Against Harden.
Who in this league can really lock Harden up, one on one? A few elite defenders, and no one says Gary is an elite defender.
If 2 steals per game is not good enough for you for someone like Trent, I don't know what you're expecting really

A lot of you during the Sixers series were saying Harden was washed up. Now you're using the "he's facing Harden" argument. What? so was Harden washed up or not?

[A.I]

A lot of you during the Sixers series were saying Harden was washed up. Now you're using the "he's facing Harden" argument. What? so was Harden washed up or not?

Harden definitely isn't Houston Harden anymore so he is washed up especially when defended by length or size.

Harden has the size/weight advantage on Gary who is a developing defender. He may be washed, but he still has the capabilities and IQ of taking advantage of Gary's lack of size and defensive flaws.

[The Great One]

Its natural for them to not mention Gary as part of the core coz they haven't locked him up yet.

FVV is under contract for one more season so....

[Kagemusha]

A lot of you during the Sixers series were saying Harden was washed up. Now you're using the "he's facing Harden" argument. What? so was Harden washed up or not?

Yeah Harden is washed.
But this Harden is still an above average player, especially one on one.

[golden]

Is he? can you really rely on him EVERY game? you mentioned New Orleans. Would a team like New Orleans who has Ingram and Zion and McCollum let Trent shoot 16x a game? no. Why would they trade for him? because of his defense? Trent doesn't play defense. The Pelicans also have Herb Jones and Trey Murphy. Two wing guys that plays D. So where would Trent fit?

If i'm picking 6-10 in the draft, i'm picking a guy who has a chance to be an all star. Worst case scenario a starter. There are some interesting names who are projected to go 6-10 this year like Mathurin, Griffin, Davis. Who'd you rather have? one of those guys or Trent? be honest.

If I'm the Raptors, I would be looking to build around Scottie, so I'm looking to get younger with longer term cost control on contracts. I have no idea how they value Mathurin, Griffin or Davis, so I'm totally un-qualified to assess their future NBA value vs. Trent.... will leave that to the experts (Masai/Bobby/Tolz).

The Pelicans are on the come-up, so they need to add veterans... not more rookie projects. Precious is going to be the starter next year for Raps, so that bumps either Trent or Scottie out of the starting lineup (hint: it won't be Scottie). It's a win-win deal for both teams.

The only fly in the ointment is the fact that Trent is a UFA after this season and he's represented by Klutch. Giving Trent the player option on a 2-year deal was a big mistake, IMO. His contract is the only issue... not value, need or fit. Trent fits on every team in the NBA.

[DanH]

The ONLY reason to even entertain moving GTJ for a pick is the contract security - more years at lower dollars, vs. GTJ possibly bouncing after this season. Otherwise, there is no way you're getting equal value (now) back, and you've no created a hole in the lineup that needs to be filled by a trade/FA. He was the best iso scorer on the team and one of the only reliable 3-pt shooters this year. He's only 23. He sounds like a hard worker. He seems to fit the culture. Unless you know he's bolting after next year, you don't sell a guy like that for a pick that MIGHT have his potential in 2-3 years.

They barely ever used Trent in isolation. He put up good efficiency in those plays but had less than 1.5 possessions a game, really not a big part of the offence. Pascal was the isolation guy, put up near 5 possessions a game on similar efficiency (0.9 PPP vs 1.0 PPP), and has the playmaking numbers to support using him that way, while Trent was basically only ever creating a shot for himself, never a teammate.

They did use Gary as a pick and roll ball handler, he got about 4 possessions a game as a finisher out of that play, but again with his limited playmaking that can't scale up, and his scoring efficiency in those plays was basically identical to Pascal, a notch below Fred, and way below Scottie's small sample successes.

His off ball shooting is the area where the team is likeliest to miss him. Some will say late shot clock scoring but his efficiency with <4 seconds on the clock is not really all that outstanding (42% eFG%), better than Fred (oof, 36%), but compared to Pascal (45%), OG (40%), and Scottie (43%) nothing that will be especially missed.

But you don't pay 20M+, his likely next raise, for off ball shooting unless it comes with another high end skill, defence or playmaking or rebounding or something, and he has none of that right now. Maybe he develops it over the next couple seasons, but right now? Team wouldn't struggle that much, though they would definitely want to add some shooting in the off-season, which of course would play into what and who they trade him for and how they then leverage their FA's into SnT's to hunt another rotation player.

[Limited Upside]

They barely ever used Trent in isolation. He put up good efficiency in those plays but had less than 1.5 possessions a game, really not a big part of the offence. Pascal was the isolation guy, put up near 5 possessions a game on similar efficiency (0.9 PPP vs 1.0 PPP), and has the playmaking numbers to support using him that way, while Trent was basically only ever creating a shot for himself, never a teammate.

They did use Gary as a pick and roll ball handler, he got about 4 possessions a game as a finisher out of that play, but again with his limited playmaking that can't scale up, and his scoring efficiency in those plays was basically identical to Pascal, a notch below Fred, and way below Scottie's small sample successes.

His off ball shooting is the area where the team is likeliest to miss him. Some will say late shot clock scoring but his efficiency with <4 seconds on the clock is not really all that outstanding (42% eFG%), better than Fred (oof, 36%), but compared to Pascal (45%), OG (40%), and Scottie (43%) nothing that will be especially missed.

But you don't pay 20M+, his likely next raise, for off ball shooting unless it comes with another high end skill, defence or playmaking or rebounding or something, and he has none of that right now. Maybe he develops it over the next couple seasons, but right now? Team wouldn't struggle that much, though they would definitely want to add some shooting in the off-season, which of course would play into what and who they trade him for and how they then leverage their FA's into SnT's to hunt another rotation player.

Didn't say he was the most-used iso guy, just the best. He was. There isn't another player on the roster right now, Pascal included, who can get his own shot going one-on-one with a defender more reliably than GTJ. And I love Pascal.

Agreed about the contract. That's why I said the ONLY reason to move him for a pick is that. Otherwise, you're giving up a proven, solid contributor at both ends with upside still to be determined, for an unproven one, at close to the same age. And if it's not a top-10 pick, the chances of the guy you get in exchange being worth that trade is just not there.

If someone offers the 10 pick for GTJ, sure, maybe you take that, but only on draft night when you're sure you're getting the guy you want. If someone offers the 20 pick, no dice. Keep him, roll with it next season, and re-assess at the deadline. He either shows he's worth that 20M next contract or he doesn't. They'll always be easily able to move a player like him for value coming back.

The team already needs to add shooting this off-season. Do you really think it makes sense to jettison the one player who has that skill NOW, and then have to replace both GTJ and still need to add more shooting? Like I said, "more shooting" is not coming this off-season by way of a draft pick. Any pick is going to be sitting at the end of the bench in 2022-23, not playing 30 minutes a game like Gary.

[Primer]

I'd rather trade Trent for Brogdon or Grant instead of a mid first round pick. We're trying to be better next season not worse.

That said if we do trade Trent for a pick this year it will likely be someone awesome that Masai has been drooling over and I'll have blind faith in him this year.

[The Great One]

But you don't pay 20M+, his likely next raise, for off ball shooting unless it comes with another high end skill, defence or playmaking or rebounding or something, and he has none of that right now.

Thank you.

The Raps need to build around Scottie. They already have some good pieces here like OG and FVV and Pascal. But when it comes to wingers? I prefer a 3D wing and a 3pt specialist. When I say 3pt specialist I'm talking about high end guys like Korver and Reddick and not Kapono and Matt Thomas type.

I keep harping about Cam Johnson I'm not sure he's available but he's the guy I'd like to see them target. He's the complete definition of what I'm looking for.

Cam Johnson + Duncan Robinson. Find a way to get both.

[A.I]

If I'm the Raptors, I would be looking to build around Scottie, so I'm looking to get younger with longer term cost control on contracts. I have no idea how they value Mathurin, Griffin or Davis, so I'm totally un-qualified to assess their future NBA value vs. Trent.... will leave that to the experts (Masai/Bobby/Tolz).

The Pelicans are on the come-up, so they need to add veterans... not more rookie projects. Precious is going to be the starter next year for Raps, so that bumps either Trent or Scottie out of the starting lineup (hint: it won't be Scottie). It's a win-win deal for both teams.

The only fly in the ointment is the fact that Trent is a UFA after this season and he's represented by Klutch. Giving Trent the player option on a 2-year deal was a big mistake, IMO. His contract is the only issue... not value, need or fit. Trent fits on every team in the NBA.

Fans have no idea what the value of picks are. Its usually all over the place. Its hard to value them given the unknown of drafting players. However, its hard to see more than a handful of picks becoming better players than Trent (who is still 23 and has lots of room to grow).

Trent does feel like the odd one out given his contract. Unless he makes a significant jump next season, its hard to see the Raptors paying him $20M+ on a 3 year deal, so perhaps thats why we are seeing Raptors interviewing players who are projected to be in the lottery.

Masai has shown in the past that he isn't scared to try and trade up in the draft if he likes a player, even if the team is a Playoff team.

[golden]

The ONLY reason to even entertain moving GTJ for a pick is the contract security - more years at lower dollars, vs. GTJ possibly bouncing after this season. Otherwise, there is no way you're getting equal value (now) back, and you've no created a hole in the lineup that needs to be filled by a trade/FA. He was the best iso scorer on the team and one of the only reliable 3-pt shooters this year. He's only 23. He sounds like a hard worker. He seems to fit the culture. Unless you know he's bolting after next year, you don't sell a guy like that for a pick that MIGHT have his potential in 2-3 years.

Yep. The only justification would be to punt cost-control down the road and bet (ie. hope) that guy becomes at least as good as Trent is now.

[LJ2]

Just to put it in perspective, The Raps aren't attracting a Trent caliber player in FA.

They draft and develop them or trade for them. They'd have to be wildly confident in a draft pick being a lot better than an 19ppg scorer to take that risk. Unless something has been said from Trent's camp that he won't resign or is demanding his next contract is something way outside what the Raps are thinking, they likely roll with Trent.

The tweet or whatever it was about Mathurin interviewing with the Raps reminds me of the info we received about their scouts looking at Giddey. Gives a good idea of the position they are looking at.

[DanH]

Didn't say he was the most-used iso guy, just the best. He was. There isn't another player on the roster right now, Pascal included, who can get his own shot going one-on-one with a defender more reliably than GTJ. And I love Pascal.

Agreed about the contract. That's why I said the ONLY reason to move him for a pick is that. Otherwise, you're giving up a proven, solid contributor at both ends with upside still to be determined, for an unproven one, at close to the same age. And if it's not a top-10 pick, the chances of the guy you get in exchange being worth that trade is just not there.

If someone offers the 10 pick for GTJ, sure, maybe you take that, but only on draft night when you're sure you're getting the guy you want. If someone offers the 20 pick, no dice. Keep him, roll with it next season, and re-assess at the deadline. He either shows he's worth that 20M next contract or he doesn't. They'll always be easily able to move a player like him for value coming back.

The team already needs to add shooting this off-season. Do you really think it makes sense to jettison the one player who has that skill NOW, and then have to replace both GTJ and still need to add more shooting? Like I said, "more shooting" is not coming this off-season by way of a draft pick. Any pick is going to be sitting at the end of the bench in 2022-23, not playing 30 minutes a game like Gary.

I think we have zero evidence that Trent can get his own shot off reliably. Can he score efficiently in isolation when he's being defended by the opposition's 3rd-4th best defender on the floor, on one or two possessions a game? Absolutely! Can we project that to being able to get his shot off against a set defence, the opposition's best defenders, and in heavy use throughout the game? Of course not.

Proven, solid contributor on BOTH ends? Uh, no, Trent worked his way into being OK defensively, though still a target in the playoffs. Big leap from awful, so, yay, but hardly what I'd call a solid or proven defender.

If someone offers you a top 10 pick for Gary on an expiring contract, I don't think you think twice. I suspect regardless of the pick, if it's the guy Masai/Bobby want and he's slipped to 20, I could see them making the move.

If he was signing for just 20M, I'd agree with you re: just holding onto him. I have a hard time projecting what his market will be, if it's closer to 30...

I don't think it makes sense to jettison Trent. I do think it makes sense to trade him for value if that value is right.

I do think it is a little silly to think a rookie will be sitting on the end of the bench when the Raptors just played their star rookie literally the most minutes of any rookie in the last decade. I doubt a mid-1st would get the same load but they'd hardly be riding the bench.

As for adding shooting, yeah, that's a concern. It would also be a concern if he walked the following summer in UFA.