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Game Twenty One (Blackjack!) Boston at Raptors Sunday November 28th 6pm on SN1

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  • saints91 wrote: View Post

    Okay, can we agree Serg was a pretty damn good roll guy? One of his strengths was being able to roll to the basket or pop out to three point line. Scottie would be more effective if he had a reliable 3 because he could, roll to basket, roll and pass out to the three point line or roll and pop. Scottie has way better court vision and passing compared to Serg. So you are right on that point

    The pick roll is all about creating a miss match because of a switch or opening up done space for the roll guy or the guy initiating the roll..

    I was honestly thinking of Scottie initiating the pick in roll not being the roll guy in my original comment, but those are reasons for a roll guy to be versatile.

    I reiterated (in my original post) “more effective” because I think he would be effective with his current skills.
    Problem with Scottie as the ball handler in a pick and roll is defenders will cut him off by going under the screen and he doesn't have a reliable off dribble 3 yet. He is perfect as a screener though. Can hit the middy, can drive to the paint, has playmaking to pass it to anyone open. Basically a better scoring version of Draymond.

    Its a pretty big Draymond/GSW staple. Curry and Draymond pick and roll, Curry passes it to Draymond on the roll, Draymond finds the lob to the cutter or pass to the shooter. Although I suppose it helps to have the greatest shooter of all time initiating the pick and roll.
    Last edited by A.I; Tue Nov 30, 2021, 12:32 AM.

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    • saints91 wrote: View Post

      Okay, can we agree Serg was a pretty damn good roll guy? One of his strengths was being able to roll to the basket or pop out to three point line. Scottie would be more effective if he had a reliable 3 because he could, roll to basket, roll and pass out to the three point line or roll and pop. Scottie has way better court vision and passing compared to Serg. So you are right on that point

      The pick roll is all about creating a miss match because of a switch or opening up done space for the roll guy or the guy initiating the roll..

      I was honestly thinking of Scottie initiating the pick in roll not being the roll guy in my original comment, but those are reasons for a roll guy to be versatile.

      I reiterated (in my original post) “more effective” because I think he would be effective with his current skills.
      He has to start from somewhere, big guys like Griffin, Aldridge, Serge to name a few did not start their careers as threats from the three point line. But they were decent screen setters and roll guys, more frequent “end recipients” of a successful PnR and PnP because of their range closer to the basket or length to a lob/oop.

      Even Bam is thriving in Miami with having Lowry as a great initiator of the PnP/PnR and Bam as the end recipient.

      Nick Nurse seem to realize the limitations of VanVleet. But we were one of the top teams in the league with PnR Man with Lowry in the fold as the initiator and Serge as the roll guy

      ———

      for now Scottie can develop his corner threes

      but they have to find a better PnR/ PnP initiator moving forward.

      Comment


      • Scottie extending his range can wait

        but maximizing his current strengths should be the priority

        Nurse has to sit down with VanVleet and discuss development of the young players should be more of the emphasis than chucking/ personal accolades

        or you get booted out

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        • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
          Scottie extending his range can wait

          but maximizing his current strengths should be the priority

          Nurse has to sit down with VanVleet and discuss development of the young players should be more of the emphasis than chucking/ personal accolades

          or you get booted out
          Maybe FVV isn't looking for personal accolades.
          He just has a different (wrong) on how to win games ie putting matters in his own hands.
          You're right, it's all on the coach and the front office.
          How many games should be played before that switch to development is decided?

          Comment


          • One great thing about the potential ceiling of Scottie….unlike those three guys I pointed as examples, Griffin/ Aldridge or Serge were one trick ponies when they started their careers.

            In my opinion, Scottie is more of a hybrid of Serge and Gasol…high level end recipient of a PnP/ PnR (Serge) but with high level court awareness and vision (Marc Gasol) who can be the screener or a decoy roller who can do a secondary pass to a corner three point shooter or a cutter

            We don’t have a high level PnR/ PnP initiator unfortunately who can do it as what the textbook is teaching.

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            • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
              One great thing about the potential ceiling of Scottie….unlike those three guys I pointed as examples, Griffin/ Aldridge or Serge were one trick ponies when they started their careers.

              In my opinion, Scottie is more of a hybrid of Serge and Gasol…high level end recipient of a PnP/ PnR (Serge) but with high level court awareness and vision (Marc Gasol) who can be the screener or a decoy roller who can do a secondary pass to a corner three point shooter or a cutter

              We don’t have a high level PnR/ PnP initiator unfortunately who can do it as what the textbook is teaching.
              What??!
              How do you read this thing?

              https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/

              Comment


              • Kagemusha wrote: View Post

                What??!
                How do you read this thing?

                https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler/
                Frequency, FG%

                you should also check PnR man and how good is Scottie is considering the circumstances.

                As I stated already, if they only have a high level PnR initiator, Scottie would be unstoppable.

                Comment


                • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                  We are in top 5 in isolation plays, why I think Raptors are bottom dwellers in Assists per Game

                  Selfish fuckers
                  Yes, if we had two fewer isolation possessions per game and were middle of the pack there instead, we'd definitely be an elite passing team.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

                  Comment


                  • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                    Frequency, FG%

                    you should also check PnR man and how good is Scottie is considering the circumstances.

                    As I stated already, if they only have a high level PnR initiator, Scottie would be unstoppable.
                    LOL what? Scottie has like 10 possessions in the PnR, making up literally 3% of his offence. You can't judge a guy's effectiveness on that sample.

                    I'm as optimistic as any that Scottie can be a very good roll threat, especially with his passing, but if he were 3/10 instead of 7/10 on the roll this year, that shouldn't change anyone's opinion on that.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                    • DanH wrote: View Post

                      LOL what? Scottie has like 10 possessions in the PnR, making up literally 3% of his offence. You can't judge a guy's effectiveness on that sample.

                      I'm as optimistic as any that Scottie can be a very good roll threat, especially with his passing, but if he were 3/10 instead of 7/10 on the roll this year, that shouldn't change anyone's opinion on that.
                      You seem to use sample size to any kind of argument for your own convenience…lol

                      Birch, Dragic, Defense - You have the heaviest weighted opinion

                      anything else - gah…it’s a small size

                      lol

                      Comment


                      • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                        You seem to use sample size to any kind of argument for your own convenience…lol

                        Birch, Dragic, Defense - You have the heaviest weighted opinion

                        anything else - gah…it’s a small size

                        lol
                        If you'd like to point out an example where I made a projection for a player's future like you did based on a 10 possession sample, I am happy to wait.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

                        Comment


                        • DanH wrote: View Post

                          If you'd like to point out an example where I made a projection for a player's future like you did based on a 10 possession sample, I am happy to wait.
                          So you did not invalidate my opinion about Scottie? and your word with such preponderance, your opinion is always holier than though lol.

                          maybe I used a flowery word “unstoppable” but it did not diminish my projection of how good he can be if there is someone who he can pair with who is high level in PnR plays. Because VanVleet ain’t that (humongous sample size)

                          Scottie 70% fg in PnR man still meaningless and you want a bigger sample then go for it…maybe he is just a bust after all when it’s all said and done lol.

                          Comment


                          • The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                            So you did not invalidate my opinion about Scottie? and your word with such preponderance, your opinion is always holier than though lol.

                            maybe I used a flowery word “unstoppable” but it did not diminish my projection of how good he can be if there is someone who he can pair with who is high level in PnR plays. Because VanVleet ain’t that (humongous sample size)

                            Scottie 70% fg in PnR man still meaningless and you want a bigger sample then go for it…maybe he is just a bust after all when it’s all said and done lol.
                            I think Scottie is great.

                            I think presenting 10 FGAs in PnR as some sort of evidence of that is silly.

                            It is very possible (and frankly the only reasonable stance) to have both of those opinions.

                            You didn't say Scottie could be unstoppable (heck, he could be!). You said with a high level PnR initiator, Scottie WOULD be unstoppable. That's an incredible leap based on basically no evidence.

                            This all leaving aside that there actually isn't a huge pile of evidence that Fred can't be a PnR creator. He's been improving by leaps and bounds there for the past two seasons. It's no coincidence Fred has assisted on 40% of Khem's FGs (Khem being the guy who generates the largest portion of his offence as the roll man). He's not some elite playmaker, but he's vastly improved from what he was a season or two ago.
                            twitter.com/dhackett1565

                            Comment


                            • Me reading todays discussions:




                              We need a GDT
                              9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

                              Comment


                              • DanH wrote: View Post

                                I think Scottie is great.

                                I think presenting 10 FGAs in PnR as some sort of evidence of that is silly.

                                It is very possible (and frankly the only reasonable stance) to have both of those opinions.

                                You didn't say Scottie could be unstoppable (heck, he could be!). You said with a high level PnR initiator, Scottie WOULD be unstoppable. That's an incredible leap based on basically no evidence.

                                This all leaving aside that there actually isn't a huge pile of evidence that Fred can't be a PnR creator. He's been improving by leaps and bounds there for the past two seasons. It's no coincidence Fred has assisted on 40% of Khem's FGs (Khem being the guy who generates the largest portion of his offence as the roll man). He's not some elite playmaker, but he's vastly improved from what he was a season or two ago.
                                Lol you cannot kick the dog from behind then throw him a bone afterwards but nice try though

                                While Birch is out, maybe VanVleet can do it with Scottie 70% of the time instead of just chucking Hail Mary’s that does not result to winning.

                                He not only can improve his game but aid in the development of the rook.

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