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The Defense in 2021-22

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  • #16
    Puffer wrote: View Post
    I think conditioning is an issue as well. These guys were not in the required shape to manage a full season of the required level of energy expenditure. We saw that about halfway through this season. A lot of guys, particularly the starters, were looking gassed entering the midpoint of the 3rd quarter of earlier. The absence of Pascal and Khem and various injuries also messed with being able to have 5 guys on the floor at one time who could go as hard as they have to to make Nurse's defensive schemes work.

    I didn't see guys clutching at their shorts last night against the Bucks. The Raptors might be turning into the best-conditioned team in the league. As they get more used to this defense and stop making so many mistakes, there could be big dividends to collect. I agree that there is a fine line between improving conditioning and grinding players down, but that's why they have Alex McKechnie and his staff.

    I'm still looking forward to seeing how it all works at the 41 game mark.
    I hope players aren't being worn down. With respect to Alex, we're dealing with a lot more injuries lately.

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    • #17
      Puffer wrote: View Post
      I think conditioning is an issue as well. These guys were not in the required shape to manage a full season of the required level of energy expenditure. We saw that about halfway through this season. A lot of guys, particularly the starters, were looking gassed entering the midpoint of the 3rd quarter of earlier. The absence of Pascal and Khem and various injuries also messed with being able to have 5 guys on the floor at one time who could go as hard as they have to to make Nurse's defensive schemes work.

      I didn't see guys clutching at their shorts last night against the Bucks. The Raptors might be turning into the best-conditioned team in the league. As they get more used to this defense and stop making so many mistakes, there could be big dividends to collect. I agree that there is a fine line between improving conditioning and grinding players down, but that's why they have Alex McKechnie and his staff.

      I'm still looking forward to seeing how it all works at the 41 game mark.
      Hit the nail on the head Puff. This system looks hard to keep up for anyone on the floor over 30min. Needs depth so we can give guys proper breaks without a big drop off in quality. I noticed this with OG earlier on. His defence is high end every minute he's on the floor, but his shot late in games start to fade a bit and look a little more flat, and that's due to tired legs. U think alternating it more with more conventional zone-defences can mitigate that
      2019 NBA Champions. Glad to have doubted the doubters.

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      • #18
        Zach Lowe calls out the Raptors defense in his 10 things list today:
        https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/sto...king-cleveland


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        • #19
          planetmars wrote: View Post
          Zach Lowe calls out the Raptors defense in his 10 things list today:
          https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/sto...king-cleveland

          There is a lot going on here, but I'd bet on Toronto climbing up the defensive rankings.
          I agree with this. We started out 6th in defense. Once OG and Birch return, we should be better. We have been doing better recently, had an awful stretch before that.

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          • #20
            A.I wrote: View Post



            I agree with this. We started out 6th in defense. Once OG and Birch return, we should be better. We have been doing better recently, had an awful stretch before that.
            If we are fully healthy we should have a top 10 defense on paper. It will bump guys down the rotation. So not as much Svi or Boucher who have both been really bad defensively. Also with OG back it should hopefully avoid getting Pascal out of foul trouble.

            But if everyone is healthy, I'd still prefer to have one of Khem or Precious start (with Trent going to the bench) so we at least have some rim protection. Our defense wasn't great from what I remember when we started small when Pascal first came back.

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            • #21
              Nah that is a weak argument… you don’t demote GTJ to the bench to get 0.5 block average rim protection from Birch if that is the only reason to downgrade your go to scorer.

              You downgrade GTJ if for example you get a legitimate rim protector if again that is the only reason for the demotion.

              Development is the priority vs. meaningless wins that may not even guarantee a win in the first place.

              Siakam just came back from injury when they had the full five and OG went down afterwards when Siakam is about to close to full speed then compounded that with a GTJ injury.

              let the Siakam/ OG/ Barnes/ GTJ and Van Vleet get their footing back for 10 games before consideration of Birch 0.5 blocks per
              You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

              When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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              • #22
                The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                Nah that is a weak argument… you don’t demote GTJ to the bench to get 0.5 block average rim protection from Birch if that is the only reason to downgrade your go to scorer.

                You downgrade GTJ if for example you get a legitimate rim protector if again that is the only reason for the demotion.

                Development is the priority vs. meaningless wins that may not even guarantee a win in the first place.

                Siakam just came back from injury when they had the full five and OG went down afterwards when Siakam is about to close to full speed then compounded that with a GTJ injury.

                let the Siakam/ OG/ Barnes/ GTJ and Van Vleet get their footing back for 10 games before consideration of Birch 0.5 blocks per
                Every year is a development year. They do both. It's how Pascal, Fred and Norm all got paid.

                This is a dark horse playoff team either way. Barnes is getting a lot of development time as is. Banton has already surpassed Flynn in the pecking order who was a FRP last season, and both bumped over Dragic who we don't want. Trent can still get 30mpg coming off the bench. As a fan I prefer to watch games where they win not lose.. I think the Raptors have proven they can get diamonds in the rough later in the draft. They don't need top 5 picks to find an elite prospect.

                Rim protection =/= blocked shots. Shot blockers are typically good defenders but not always. Drummond, KAT, Wood and Whiteside get a lot of blocks, but neither are great defenders. Defending the paint requires a) not having guys enter the paint. And b) if they do, to help them miss their shot. So a great DFG%.

                Precious is really good at protecting the paint. I'm not as high on Khem, but at least he gets us second chance opportunities from his offensive rounding. That just helps ensure the defense gets less possessions, which will also help our defense in turn.

                But yeah eventually we'll need an upgrade at the 5 or really hope Precious turns into a stud. I think he has some potential, but has a long way to go on offense. He can't even score near the rim. I think he's worse than Biyombo was on offense.

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                • #23
                  planetmars wrote: View Post

                  Every year is a development year. They do both. It's how Pascal, Fred and Norm all got paid.

                  This is a dark horse playoff team either way. Barnes is getting a lot of development time as is. Banton has already surpassed Flynn in the pecking order who was a FRP last season, and both bumped over Dragic who we don't want. Trent can still get 30mpg coming off the bench. As a fan I prefer to watch games where they win not lose.. I think the Raptors have proven they can get diamonds in the rough later in the draft. They don't need top 5 picks to find an elite prospect.

                  Rim protection =/= blocked shots. Shot blockers are typically good defenders but not always. Drummond, KAT, Wood and Whiteside get a lot of blocks, but neither are great defenders. Defending the paint requires a) not having guys enter the paint. And b) if they do, to help them miss their shot. So a great DFG%.

                  Precious is really good at protecting the paint. I'm not as high on Khem, but at least he gets us second chance opportunities from his offensive rounding. That just helps ensure the defense gets less possessions, which will also help our defense in turn.

                  But yeah eventually we'll need an upgrade at the 5 or really hope Precious turns into a stud. I think he has some potential, but has a long way to go on offense. He can't even score near the rim. I think he's worse than Biyombo was on offense.
                  As I said, the reason for the demotion has to significantly outweigh the benefits of having GTJ start the game.

                  Siakam by now is fully recovered…

                  It is just unfortunate that OG is still down and GTJ just came back from an injury after being great as a starter at both ends of the floor

                  By now I guess, with OG out….I would prefer Birch over Precious as a starter.

                  You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                  When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    On the topic of GTJ i would really like us to cater our bench to suit bantons play style. We really wanted to get turnovers and play fast. I dont think that is something we can do for 48 minutes but if we could have a deadly bench unit that played that style with banton id would be sick...
                    Id love to see bench unit of Banton, Gary, Yuta, Barnes and Precious. Those guys can all run, force steals and could just destroy other 2nd unit who would likely get flustered playing at that pace.. We could still Gary and Barnes, it would take some careful juggling but that 5 man unit is something that intrigues me.
                    Banton and Barnes can handle and push the pace. Yuta can hit 3s from the corner, Gary and hit from anywhere and precious can get more open looks just running hard or trailing for top of key 3s. and all dudes play agreesive solid D.
                    Plus any bench unit that can play without Fred is huge to giving him rest. Worth a shot to see if this would work
                    To be the champs you got to beat the champs

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                    • #25
                      The collapsing defense and ovelhelping is still Nick Nurse Achilles….just play man to man ffs….
                      You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                      When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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                      • #26
                        The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                        As I said, the reason for the demotion has to significantly outweigh the benefits of having GTJ start the game.

                        Siakam by now is fully recovered…

                        It is just unfortunate that OG is still down and GTJ just came back from an injury after being great as a starter at both ends of the floor

                        By now I guess, with OG out….I would prefer Birch over Precious as a starter.
                        What are the benefits of having GTJ start though? You talk about development, but that's not linear. How does him starting help him develop if he can also get up to 30mpg from the bench? I mean Miami had Herro coming off the bench (not sure if they still do with Bam out now). And I'm sure they want to develop him into a star.

                        To me it comes back to trying to win as many games as possible.. when we go small, we have a tendency to double team on the perimeter to help protect the paint. That always leaves a guy open. With Precious (or Khem) we do less of that, and we've done that recently. Our defense has been a lot better since Precious came back from his shoulder injury.

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                        • #27
                          The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post
                          Nah that is a weak argument… you don’t demote GTJ to the bench to get 0.5 block average rim protection from Birch if that is the only reason to downgrade your go to scorer.

                          You downgrade GTJ if for example you get a legitimate rim protector if again that is the only reason for the demotion.

                          Development is the priority vs. meaningless wins that may not even guarantee a win in the first place.

                          Siakam just came back from injury when they had the full five and OG went down afterwards when Siakam is about to close to full speed then compounded that with a GTJ injury.

                          let the Siakam/ OG/ Barnes/ GTJ and Van Vleet get their footing back for 10 games before consideration of Birch 0.5 blocks per
                          hard to promote birch if he isn't healthy

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            planetmars wrote: View Post

                            What are the benefits of having GTJ start though? You talk about development, but that's not linear. How does him starting help him develop if he can also get up to 30mpg from the bench? I mean Miami had Herro coming off the bench (not sure if they still do with Bam out now). And I'm sure they want to develop him into a star.

                            To me it comes back to trying to win as many games as possible.. when we go small, we have a tendency to double team on the perimeter to help protect the paint. That always leaves a guy open. With Precious (or Khem) we do less of that, and we've done that recently. Our defense has been a lot better since Precious came back from his shoulder injury.
                            But have we ever have a full roster with Siakam being fully recovered?

                            Before you make this kind of changes, you have to see what you have.

                            You started this discussion by saying this…

                            But if everyone is healthy, I'd still prefer to have one of Khem or Precious start (with Trent going to the bench) so we at least have some rim protection. Our defense wasn't great from what I remember when we started small when Pascal first came back.
                            They were still struggling with rim protection before Siakam.

                            I full remembered, You mentioned about having GTJ come off the bench and even suggested SVI in lieu of him prior to GTJ having exceptional performances as part of the starting unit.

                            I have not read any more post game complaints from you when GTJ is performing well as a starter.

                            Then just the 1 game last night when he came back from injury, you are once again insinuating that he should come off the bench.

                            Could it just be coincidence or has this issue been bothering you when they had that 6 game winning streak with GTJ’s top level performance as one of the reason of the streak?
                            You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                            When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


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                            • #29
                              This forum go thru phases of who they pick as scapegoats…lol

                              First it was GTJ, then Precious, then Siakam, then back to GTJ

                              Boucher, Flynn and Dragic are already honorary members

                              Last edited by The Claw Reborn; Fri Dec 3, 2021, 02:05 PM.
                              You cannot cancel me out dumb dumb, I will always be in that little nugget of yours camping like a mosquito https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/c...ilies/wink.png

                              When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers


                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The Claw Reborn wrote: View Post

                                But have we ever have a full roster with Siakam being fully recovered?

                                Before you make this kind of changes, you have to see what you have.

                                You started this discussion by saying this…



                                They were still struggling with rim protection before Siakam.

                                I full remembered, You mentioned about having GTJ come off the bench and even suggested SVI in lieu of him prior to GTJ having exceptional performances as part of the starting unit.

                                I have not read any more post game complaints from you when GTJ is performing well as a starter.

                                Then just the 1 game last night when he came back from injury, you are once again insinuating that he should come off the bench.

                                Could it just be coincidence or has this issue been bothering you when they had that 6 game winning streak with GTJ’s top level performance as one of the reason of the streak?
                                This is more about having an actual center and less about GT.

                                We are going to start OG/Fred/Pascal regardless. So then it comes down to 2 positions. I personally would rather have Achiuawa or Birch start, and move OG to the SG spot. I guess if you want Barnes to come off the bench that's an option too, but I like Barnes for his passing/playmaking.

                                I do think they need a C to start. I've been pretty clear on that, since even this past summer. That's why I wanted Holmes so much.

                                GT's game has definitely changed my opinion of his. He's definitely a keeper. But he can still come off the bench.


                                Pascal, OG, Barnes, GT and Fred all started for 3 games. Lost to Brooklyn, Boston, and Portland.

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